Matt 7's "I never knew you" continued

[steaver]

Since Bob's thread was sorta highjacked by this deliberation on Matt 7 I want to continue it as it's own thread. The thread it was on is getting very busy with several topics and I see a need to finish what i had started.

Those following the discussion between Jump and myself already know where we let off so I won't repeat it all.

i want to just summarize what was said just to bring us up to date.

I attempted to show the folly in Jump's view of scripture's position by showing him that his explanation of Jesus' word "never" would place a very absolute condition upon the group Jesus was refering to. He did not buckle, but found what he believed was proof that a born of God believer could indeed have zero worthy works and therefore Jesus will be speaking to those saved who had zero worthy works when He says "I never knew you".

I personally find it very strange and very unbiblical that a born of God believer would never have done one worthy work in their life, but at least that would leave myself and Jump out of the picture since I believe we both have the required minimum of one. I do, I trust he does too and many more than that.

If having to explain Jesus' word "never" did not change one's mind i am almost certain nothing will, but I want to move on just to show others even more evidence that Jesus was not speaking about the saved in this passage.

Second part of Jesus' word..."Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Let's take a look at what scripture teaches us about those who work iniquity....

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

We all are full of iniquities, yes even those who trust in the living God are full of iniquities. But the word of God has a cure for this problem, a solution, for man cannot produce a clean enough act of kindness or produce a clean enough work or fruit in and of himself to have God VIEW him as worthy. Every work will be viewed as a filthy rag UNLESS you belong to Jesus.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Is Christ bearing your iniquities? All of them? Or are some not covered by His blood?

Job was a God fearing man, was he not? God even said so to satan....

Job 1:1¶There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Would Job be one of those in Jump's view of Matt 7 who would find himself having iniquities, and would have Jesus say "depart from me"?

What says God about Job's iniquities?

Job 22:5Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

WOW!!!

Job finding himself in a very humbling position before an all mighty and perfect God!

"Wickedness great" and "iniquities infinite".

Job, who thought he was doing pretty good, who thought he was running a good race, finds himself very needy. In need of grace and mercy AT ALL TIMES. And God gives his sheep that grace and mercy at all times.

Jesus has taken that burden and has taken upon Himself the iniquities of those who belong to Him. How could He then turn around and say "depart from me, ye that work iniquity."?

Job's iniquities were "infinite"! Do you believe you will fair better than Job "on that day"?

Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

I must conclude from scripture interpreting scripture that "depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt 7) cannot be speaking to those who have been pardoned through faith in Christ from their "infinite" iniquities.

Psa 103:10 declares HE HATH NOT rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Isa 53 declares Jesus bears our iniquities. They are covered by the blood of Christ.

Let me assume that some may argue that our iniquities are covered in the eternal sense (saved from hell) but we still must suffer the consequences of them for the 1000 year reign of Christ. If this were true, every single saved person would have to depart from Christ and Christ would have to reign alone because every single saved person, just like Job, has "infinite" iniquities.

"I never kew you" is the first clue that these people are not saved.

"depart from me, ye that work iniquity" is the second clue that these people are not saved. All have works of iniquity, saved or unsaved, but only those who have the personal relationship, those known by Jesus as sheep, will be spared those terrible words. Those working iniquity spoken of in Matt 7 can only be those who are working without Jesus Christ.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Eliyahu]

I don't know what happened in the previous thread, but I want to assure you that the people Matthew 7:20-23 is talking about are Unsaved from the beginning. Jesus didn't tell us that He knew them in the beginning but later on denied them, but that He never knew them before!

They were unbelievers from the beginning, but they misunderstood that they were saved and were the believers in Jesus and expected that they could go to Heaven, and that's why they came to Jesus with the hope that they could enter the Kingdom of God. Their expectation turned wrong! God is not cheated, even though their hypocrisy could succeed in cheating the people by pretending to be holy priests or holy prophets.

We must differentiate them from the True believers who are confessing their sins to God in the OT. The bornagain believers confess the sins often admitting that what they did is far less than the criteria by God, which are the cases with what Isaiah tells us. But the passage of Matt 7 is exactly the story of the Fake Christians running on the Highway thru the Wide Gate leading to the Destruction. Jesus tells us the story in connection with the False Prophets, Bad Trees, Broadway thru the Wide Gate.

It is more interesting if we read this passage by combining with Luke 13:25 -

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, Iknow you not whence ye are 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

It seems that these people did all things required by the Bible but they were rejected by Jesus, Why?

 

[steaver]

(steaver)....Job 22:5Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

WOW!!!

Job finding himself in a very humbling position before an all mighty and perfect God!

"Wickedness great" and "iniquities infinite".

Job, who thought he was doing pretty good, who thought he was running a good race, finds himself very needy. In need of grace and mercy AT ALL TIMES. And God gives his sheep that grace and mercy at all times.

Woops.....:tear:

That was not God speaking, that was Eliphaz.

Strike that from my point!

:tonofbricks:

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

But what if you could SPIN "depart from me I never knew you" into "WELCOLME to heaven - ENJOY eternal bliss and fellowship with the saints for you have made it to heaven never knowing Me - and Me never knowing you".

Wouldn't that be "another Gospel" one that allows us to edit and rewrite scripture ENTIRELY??

Clearly the text ITSELF is not arguing for such an abuse of scripture - so the "motive" for doing such a thing does NOT come from a fair unbiased reading of the text. RATHER you have to START out WANTING to do something like that (or NEEDING to do it to save some bogus doctrine).

So when looking at what J Jump has done here - what is the NEED being satisfied that is soooo overwhelming that an abuse of the text could even be considered??

Any clues?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[windcatcher]

A little off the OP, but perhaps it can be addressed.

Is it possible that one can want to know Jesus and be saved, but they have a heart filled with doubts and can't get the faith to believe?

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN"

The question above is of the form "yes but what if someone is unnable to open the door and so Christ's offer is STILL too far removed for them to accept"?

It presupposes that "God is not faithful" to actually DRAW ALL unto Him as He said He would do in John 12;32

It would be false advertising for God to make a hollow claim of availability of the Gospel only to have people fail because God has not connected enough dots for them to accept.

Why in the world would he DIE for their sins and then NOT give them the opportunity to aCCEPT the gift purchased at INFINITE price?

 

[Eliyahu]

A little off the OP, but perhaps it can be addressed.

Is it possible that one can want to know Jesus and be saved, but they have a heart filled with doubts and can't get the faith to believe?

In my experience, I had so many questions in the early stage of my salvation, then I asked such questions whenever I found someone who had some good knowledge and I read Bible and many exegeses. All the time I continued to be amazed and to be changed. In the whole process I argued in defense of the Truth even during my early stage of Christian life.
I used to attend the church for 5 years very much actively, being baptised by sprinkling, defending that God exists and that Jesus was born of a virgin, believing in the second coming of Jesus. But I didn't realize I was a sinner and need a Savior.
But when I was born again in the Lord, I started to have so many questions such as what about the salvation of the Gentiles before the Gospel was preached, as I believed there were some good people like Socrates before the Gospel was preached, or how to compromise the Creation with the Evolution, etc. Then I started to find my own version of interpretation of the whole situation. Now I don't rely on those ideas but simply trust in God.
So, answering your question, I doubt that the truly born again believer can have many questions unanswered so long time, by the Holy Spirit. For a short time, yes, one may have many questions which will draw the person to the Bible and to the Lord.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Since Bob's thread was sorta highjacked by this deliberation on Matt 7 I want to continue it as it's own thread. The thread it was on is getting very busy with several topics and I see a need to finish what i had started.

Those following the discussion between Jump and myself already know where we let off so I won't repeat it all.

i want to just summarize what was said just to bring us up to date.

I attempted to show the folly in Jump's view of scripture's position by showing him that his explanation of Jesus' word "never" would place a very absolute condition upon the group Jesus was refering to. He did not buckle, but found what he believed was proof that a born of God believer could indeed have zero worthy works and therefore Jesus will be speaking to those saved who had zero worthy works when He says "I never knew you".

I personally find it very strange and very unbiblical that a born of God believer would never have done one worthy work in their life, but at least that would leave myself and Jump out of the picture since I believe we both have the required minimum of one. I do, I trust he does too and many more than that.

If having to explain Jesus' word "never" did not change one's mind i am almost certain nothing will, but I want to move on just to show others even more evidence that Jesus was not speaking about the saved in this passage.

Second part of Jesus' word..."Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Let's take a look at what scripture teaches us about those who work iniquity....

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

We all are full of iniquities, yes even those who trust in the living God are full of iniquities. But the word of God has a cure for this problem, a solution, for man cannot produce a clean enough act of kindness or produce a clean enough work or fruit in and of himself to have God VIEW him as worthy. Every work will be viewed as a filthy rag UNLESS you belong to Jesus.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Is Christ bearing your iniquities? All of them? Or are some not covered by His blood?

Job was a God fearing man, was he not? God even said so to satan....

Job 1:1¶There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Would Job be one of those in Jump's view of Matt 7 who would find himself having iniquities, and would have Jesus say "depart from me"?

What says God about Job's iniquities?

Job 22:5Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

WOW!!!

Job finding himself in a very humbling position before an all mighty and perfect God!

"Wickedness great" and "iniquities infinite".

Job, who thought he was doing pretty good, who thought he was running a good race, finds himself very needy. In need of grace and mercy AT ALL TIMES. And God gives his sheep that grace and mercy at all times.

Jesus has taken that burden and has taken upon Himself the iniquities of those who belong to Him. How could He then turn around and say "depart from me, ye that work iniquity."?

Job's iniquities were "infinite"! Do you believe you will fair better than Job "on that day"?

Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

I must conclude from scripture interpreting scripture that "depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt 7) cannot be speaking to those who have been pardoned through faith in Christ from their "infinite" iniquities.

Psa 103:10 declares HE HATH NOT rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Isa 53 declares Jesus bears our iniquities. They are covered by the blood of Christ.

Let me assume that some may argue that our iniquities are covered in the eternal sense (saved from hell) but we still must suffer the consequences of them for the 1000 year reign of Christ. If this were true, every single saved person would have to depart from Christ and Christ would have to reign alone because every single saved person, just like Job, has "infinite" iniquities.

"I never kew you" is the first clue that these people are not saved.

"depart from me, ye that work iniquity" is the second clue that these people are not saved. All have works of iniquity, saved or unsaved, but only those who have the personal relationship, those known by Jesus as sheep, will be spared those terrible words. Those working iniquity spoken of in Matt 7 can only be those who are working without Jesus Christ.

God Bless! :thumbs:

I certainly agree. Never is not conditional. Many may think they know the Savior and many may claim to know the Savior, but if He doesn't know them... how can they know Him?

Many will try to get in by works, trying to please the Father on their own terms.

But, as you point out so vividly, Jesus will then proclaim, 'I never knew you... ye that work iniquity.'

God hates all workers of iniquity. Psalms 5:5

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN"

The question above is of the form "yes but what if someone is unnable to open the door and so Christ's offer is STILL too far removed for them to accept"?

It presupposes that "God is not faithful" to actually DRAW ALL unto Him as He said He would do in John 12;32

It would be false advertising for God to make a hollow claim of availability of the Gospel only to have people fail because God has not connected enough dots for them to accept.

Why in the world would he DIE for their sins and then NOT give them the opportunity to aCCEPT the gift purchased at INFINITE price?

God's Spirit draws, Bob. But many reject that drawing and turn to their own way.

 

[BobRyan]

God's Spirit draws, Bob. But many reject that drawing and turn to their own way.

Agreed and as Romans 2:2-14 points out "the difference" is in the people who are choosing not in the God who is providing the way of escape for "ALL".

God is not arbitrarily selecting SOME and not others for salvation.

 

[CheeseCrackerKidd]

God said He was willing that all come to repentance. There is not one single person on this earth that has not been or will not be offered the gift of Salvation.

Many will reject it, but the offer was there for them.

 

[Rippon]

CCK , welcome to the BB . I beg your pardon but multiplied millions throughout the ages have never heard the Gospel , salvation was not "offered to them" .

 

[CheeseCrackerKidd]

Rippon,

And you know this because?

 

[Rippon]

BR , you toss the word "arbitrary" around a great deal . You say that God doesn't make arbitrary choices . But , by that you mean that God is not capricious -- that he does not operate on a whim . In that I agree . However , the Lord is arbitrary -- He has the perfect right to be . He is subject to His own will -- not of the will of any other . He makes His own judgments based upon His own decisions . There is no law that He must adhere to -- whatever He does is just . God is a despot -- a ruler with absolute power . But He is not a tyrant -- that suggests an evil propensity -- again God is JUST .

He has the privilege to choose whoever He wants for eternal life . See John 5:21 ... the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it . If you think that the Creator and Sustainer of all is not allowed to make these choices "your god is too small" as J.b. Phillips said .

 

[Linda64]

Rippon,

You need to check your definitions more closely. You said that God is a "despot", but then you turned around and said He is not a tyrant. According to Websters New World Dictionary, a "despot" is a tyrant.

Also, God is not "arbitrary" as you suppose. He does not "randomly" pick and choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.

The Word of God says that "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance". (2 Peter 3:9) If God wants even one soul to be lost, then He lied.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)

John Calvin says:

"[God] devotes to destruction whom he pleases ... they are predestinated to eternal death without any demerit of their own, merely by his sovereign will. ... he orders all things by his counsel and decree in such a manner, that some men are born devoted from the womb to certain death, that his name by glorified in their destruction. .. God chooses whom he will as his children ... while he rejects and reprobates others" (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book III, chap. 23).

Jesus Christ gave Himself for the WHOLE world, not just those who think they are the "elect".

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

 

[Rippon]

Linda , I liked the Calvin quote . It does not support your position , but mine .

Again , arbitrary does not mean capricious . The LORD does nothing on a whim -- at random .

Regarding 1 Tim. 2:4 : If He wills it will happen . His will will be accomplished . But it is not His will that all are to be saved . Thew Lamb's Book Of Life has only the names of some inscribed -- not all .

"All people" in that passage refer to the fact that there are no national distictions -- all of His own are scattered throughout the world .

The LORD desires that some not come to a saving knowledge of Himself -- see 2 Thess. 2:11 . In John 5:21 it says that "the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it " . Not each and every person who has ever lived past , present and future . He has foreodained the eternal destruction of many .

 

[CheeseCrackerKidd]

The LORD desires that some not come to a saving knowledge of Himself -- see 2 Thess. 2:11

That is utter nonsense! Have you even read the verse in context, you might have seen that those who God sends strong delusions to were sent strong delusions 'for this cause.'

For what cause? Back up to verse 10 and you will see why the delusions were sent. 'they received not the love of the truth'.

The offer was made. God sent His Son into the world to die that the world through Him might live.

They refused the offer that was made. He came unto His own and His own received Him not. They received not the love for the truth. All they had to do was accept the offer that was given to all mankind... but they did not.

Your quote, 'The LORD desires that some not come to a saving knowledge of Himself' is contrary to what Scripture clearly states.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[BobRyan]

BR , you toss the word "arbitrary" around a great deal . You say that God doesn't make arbitrary choices . But , by that you mean that God is not capricious -- that he does not operate on a whim . In that I agree . However , the Lord is arbitrary -- He has the perfect right to be . He is subject to His own will -- not of the will of any other . He makes His own judgments based upon His own decisions . There is no law that He must adhere to -- whatever He does is just . God is a despot -- a ruler with absolute power . But He is not a tyrant -- that suggests an evil propensity -- again God is JUST .

There IS a Law that He adheres to -- His own! When God says something He is TRUE to HIS WORD.

That is the rub sir.

Once He CHOOSES the path "I am not partial" Rom 2:11 - He is TRUE to it.

Once He CHOOSES to "So love the World... yes really" John 3:16 He is true to it.

Once He CHOOSES to be "not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" He is true to His own word.

Once He CHOOSES to "send His Son to be the Savior of the World" 1John 4:14 -- He is true to His word.

Once HE CHOOSES that His Son is to be the "atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" He is TRUE to His Word -- no false deceptive word-parsing advertising.

Once He CHOOSES to "Draw ALL unto Him" John 12:32 He is faithful to His own Word though everyone else be found a liar.

In Romans 3:2-5 and 2Tim 2:8-10 God say that though everyone else is found to be a liar a fair evaluation of God vs His Word will always find HIM to be true.

Any tiny man-made arbitrary fickle tyrant can be deceptive and unfaithful to his own laws and Word. But it takes a BIG God to make such global sweeping claims as we see in the above and be TRUE them!

2 Tim 2

10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Linda64:

"Also, God is not "arbitrary" as you suppose. He does not "randomly" pick and choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell."

You are right, and also, not right. To say with what you here say, that God has not his own free will and choice in electing to save whom He does save, is wrong. But of course the will of God in saving those He elected to save is nothing arbitrary. It is "the mysterie of Godliness". God's thoughts are too high for any to fathom its depths.

Fact is, in the end, it is God and Christ who know the one, who is saved through God knowing him or her, and never ever, no, not in one instance, the one who because of or through his knowing God. The Subject of the saving knowledge is God - not us.

We have just this Sabbath received a sermon on this verse of Scripture. The Doctor preached for one and half hours, and exhausted about every aspect of the parable and subjective devotion. But he did not reach these words of God's, of God's sovereignty in the salvation of the sinner: "I, never knew you". Surprising therefore was it not in the least, that he uttered no word of the verse that states, that the wise "enterd in WITH HIM", and "IN HIM", the Bridegroom.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CCK:

"All they had to do was accept the offer that was given to all mankind... but they did not."

GE:

"... all they had to do ...".
I'm a labourer. When I give a quote for a job, and hear these words from the contractor, 'all you have to do is ...', a close my tender book and say, Sorry sir, I'm unable to quote you.

What you want 'them' to do, is of everything the most impossible - you want them to do the work of God. All they cannot do is accept the offer that was given to all mankind and which all mankind just cannot, nor will not, unless grace chose to create in any that heart that will, and is able to. This phenomenon is called: Election.