GLipscomb48 said:
GE:
God be with you; He is our Peace!
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Matt 7's "I never knew you" continued
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
GE:
God be with you; He is our Peace!
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
GE:
Calvin, 3/23/12c, "Have done then, with blasphemies which wickedly invert the whole order of election!"
Stop 'inverting' Calvin's arguments through isolation and ill willingly creating false context, making what Calvin says the haters of free grace say, say what he says they say!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
GE (talking to himself nonstop) -- your post 25 and 30 are simply "you" talking to "you".
At what point do you post an ACTUAL LINK to something I posted on this thread???
(at the risk of disturbing your dialogue with you)
Your post 46.... "More of the same".
I have asked three or four times for you to SHOW where you are getting this stuff and still you refuse to post the link.
WHERE are you claiming I posted ANY of this???? Or are you simply talking to yourself?
in Christ,
Bob
Originally Posted by BobRyan
GE (talking to himself nonstop) -- your post 25 and 30 are simply "you" talking to "you".
At what point do you post an ACTUAL LINK to something I posted on this thread???
(at the risk of disturbing your dialogue with you)
Your post 46.... "More of the same".
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
I have asked three or four times for you to SHOW where you are getting this stuff and still you refuse to post the link.
WHERE are you claiming I posted ANY of this???? Or are you simply talking to yourself?
in Christ,
Bob
Linda64 vbmenu_register("postmenu_1031461", true);
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cleveland, MS
Posts: 1,481
RE: Matt 7's "I never knew you" continued
Rippon,
You need to check your definitions more closely. You said that God is a "despot", but then you turned around and said He is not a tyrant. According to Websters New World Dictionary, a "despot" is a tyrant.
Also, God is not "arbitrary" as you suppose. He does not "randomly" pick and choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.
The Word of God says that "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance". (2 Peter 3:9) If God wants even one soul to be lost, then He lied.
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)
Quote:
John Calvin says:
"[God] devotes to destruction whom he pleases ... they are predestinated to eternal death without any demerit of their own, merely by his sovereign will. ... he orders all things by his counsel and decree in such a manner, that some men are born devoted from the womb to certain death, that his name by glorified in their destruction. .. God chooses whom he will as his children ... while he rejects and reprobates others" (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book III, chap. 23).
Jesus Christ gave Himself for the WHOLE world, not just those who think they are the "elect".
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1-4)
GE: I am ashamed! I apologise, BobRyan.
What I have said, I now address to you, Linda64
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cleveland, MS
Posts: 1,481
RE: Matt 7's "I never knew you" continued
Rippon,
You need to check your definitions more closely. You said that God is a "despot", but then you turned around and said He is not a tyrant. According to Websters New World Dictionary, a "despot" is a tyrant.
Also, God is not "arbitrary" as you suppose. He does not "randomly" pick and choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.
The Word of God says that "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance". (2 Peter 3:9) If God wants even one soul to be lost, then He lied.
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)
Quote:
John Calvin says:
"[God] devotes to destruction whom he pleases ... they are predestinated to eternal death without any demerit of their own, merely by his sovereign will. ... he orders all things by his counsel and decree in such a manner, that some men are born devoted from the womb to certain death, that his name by glorified in their destruction. .. God chooses whom he will as his children ... while he rejects and reprobates others" (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book III, chap. 23).
Jesus Christ gave Himself for the WHOLE world, not just those who think they are the "elect".
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1-4)
GE: I am ashamed! I apologise, BobRyan.
What I have said, I now address to you, Linda64
You made the statement that there are "rules and boundaries". You made the statement that we can know that we will reign. Yet you cannot answer these simple questions. Either you know or you do not. It can't be both ways.
My question, just a different angle. There is still a line spoken of. If you don't know then just say so but then you cannot know if you are going to reign with Christ, unless you be perfect. You tell us we have a judgment coming with some very serious consequences for sin, yet you cannot tell us the bottom line as to how we can be sure that we will not end up in torture during the 1000 years. Did Jesus want it to stay a mystery?
Come on brother, give the text that speak about those who get to reign with Christ. You teach this doctrine don't you? Are you telling me that you cannot give scripture? How then do you teach?
Your saying one can read this text in Ruth and understand that it is about the thousand year reign with Christ? Please give the scripture and let us see how it is focused on this 1000 year reign.
There! You have judged your own worthiness, Christ won't have to do it for you. So what did you base this on? One work, three, what if you did no works for two days? What if you die with an unconfessed sin, went to bed madd or something? We just need some scripture!
God Bless! :thumbs:
What are you twp okes at each others' throat for? I can't distinguish a bone of contention?
Sure it can. Scripture teaches me what I must do and what I must abstain from doing. Again the goal is to get as far away from the line as possible, not flirt with how much you can get away with. I'm not sure how much a person can get away with, and again my goal is to look unto Jesus and get as close to Him as possible. So if I never discover the answer of how far can I go and still be okay that's fine with me.
Again ultimately this is where this discussion ends up and this is where people will jump off because they can't get a meaningless question answered. And it's a question that really shouldn't be asked in the first place.
This statement makes no sense. I have already admitted to you that I don't know where that line is and I don't care to know, because that is a misplaced focus. My desire is to continue to get as close to Jesus as I can. And the closer I get the further I get away from that line.
Again another untrue statement. The vast majority of the NT is written to believers so that they can know what is required of them to rule and reign with Christ. It has all be laid out for us. If there is failure it is failure on our part not His.
The last time I checked the entire NT is Scripture. If you want to know then go read the NT. All you have to do is go do a Scripture search on kingdom and that will keep you busy for a while. I'm not going to retype the entire NT for you. This is just a plain silly statement.
Again I'm not going to retype the entire book of Ruth for you. I'm sure you have at least one Bible so go read it.
The book of Ruth is talking about the journey of a Christian. It ends with a picture of judgment which is a separation of the worthy (to rule and reign with Christ) and the unworthy, who don't (although you don't see this aspect in the book of Ruth, because Orpah isn't pictured after her refusal to go on the journey).
If you are truly interested I can point you to a couple of sermon series you can listen to.
The Scriptures are written so that we can know we are on the right path. God doesn't want it to be a mystery until the last day. His plan is revealed and it is up to us to want to follow it.
God doesn't want us to be playing a guessing game.
And it seems to me that you want all your questions answered in a span of one or two posts and that's not going to happen. This has taken me two years to get to the point where I am. If you want answers to your questions then you are going to have to study the matters out. I can point you to resources, but this board is merely a spring board for more study, not ALL the answers. There is neither time nor space for that.
Only you can determine whether you want to study the matters out in further detail.
First of all, thank you for the softer tone in your words. :thumbs:
.......this does not coinside with this....
You cannot say you know for certain unless you know where Jesus draws the line, IF he does indeed draw any line at all!
You are correct that this is where these discussions lead and that is because one holding these types of doctrines will have to ultimately always come to a "I don't know" answer when pointed questions are raised.
Well, God bless you in your works and deeds brother and I will see you in the kingdom if I never meet you here in this earthly tabernacle. ( I guess I know I will be there, Praise Jesus!)
God Bless! :wavey:
.......this does not coinside with this....
You cannot say you know for certain unless you know where Jesus draws the line, IF he does indeed draw any line at all!
You are correct that this is where these discussions lead and that is because one holding these types of doctrines will have to ultimately always come to a "I don't know" answer when pointed questions are raised.
Well, God bless you in your works and deeds brother and I will see you in the kingdom if I never meet you here in this earthly tabernacle. ( I guess I know I will be there, Praise Jesus!)
God Bless! :wavey:
The contention is Jump believes the born of God can suffer the lost of their soul and be placed in torment for the 1000 years Christ reigns on earth if they fail to have worthy works for our Lord after regeneration.
I on the other hand believe that all of the born of God will be in the 1000year reign of Christ on earth and there is no torment asigned to any of the born of God.
God Bless! :thumbs:
Sure it does. It may not make sense to you, but that doesn't make it untrue.
Sure you can. Again the point is to be moving away from that line wherever it might be. And as long as you are progressing toward Christ and His kingdom you are going to be fine. It's when you stop believing and when your faith is dead that there are problems.
But bottom line is Scripture says that you can know, so if it says we can know then that's good enough for me.
That's not a true statement at all. These conversations end up here because every other question that gets asked gets answered with Scripture and those that oppose the view run out of things to talk about so their either start name-calling and lying or the conversation turns to this well how much can I get away with and be okay. Which isn't what the focus should be anyway. It's a question that should never be asked, but because everything else fails it always comes here where folks like you say ah ha I got you because you can't answer this. Which is pretty silly.
Well I hope you are going to be there. It is my desire that all would come to repentance just as God says in His Word. I don't want anyone to miss out on their inheritance, but ultimately it is up to each individual person as to whether they want to sale their inheritance in this life as Esau did and miss out on the inheritance to come.
But with all due respect, and you have not addressed this point that I am aware of, your view allows one to serve two masters. You say that you can have all this world has to offer and still rule and reign in the kingdom. One can be as disobedient, unfaithful and non-overcoming as they want to and the only thing that is going to happen is their slice of paradise pie is going to be smaller than the others.
So there is no incentive to live right now when you can live like the Devil now and still have all that paradise has to offer. Again there should be no mistaking why this doctrine is so popular now days. My ears get warm and fuzzy just reading about it
.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
OHM said:But with all due respect, and you have not addressed this point that I am aware of, your view allows one to serve two masters. You say that you can have all this world has to offer and still rule and reign in the kingdom. One can be as disobedient, unfaithful and non-overcoming as they want to and the only thing that is going to happen is their slice of paradise pie is going to be smaller than the others.
So there is no incentive to live right now when you can live like the Devil now and still have all that paradise has to offer. Again there should be no mistaking why this doctrine is so popular now days. My ears get warm and fuzzy just reading about it
Seed - J Jump is trying to solve the "perseverance problem" while clinging to OSAS.
AS I have stated repeatedly to J Jump -- he is making a good point but doing it from Matt 7 is silly! Pick at text that MAKES your point sr.
(Why is it I seem to be the only person that can see that???)
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
J Jump is trying to salvage OSAS in the light of the Bible doctrine on Perseverance "ONE WAY" and Steaver does it "another way".
The point of the thread sir - is that Matt 7 happens to be one of the best places to expose a gap in J Jump's solution.
J Jump needs to claim that "I never knew you" in Matt 7 really means "saved anyway and going straight to heaven - knowing Christ or NOT".
in Christ,
Bob
You are saying here, that one can stop believing in Jesus Christ and still be saved but lose their reward?
A) Name calling. Have I done this?
B) lying. Have I done this?
C) Asking "How much can I get away with"? Have I done this?
Please give post#s.
If that is my view then how much different is it then your's? And your view is that one can serve two masters and still receive all heaven has to offer only after they spend 1000 years in punishment. Correct! Either way, either view, the Christian gets to serve two masters and still be in heaven in the end. So why even point out there is an "incentive" in your view but not in mine? My view would have an incentive also (rewards).
(Jump)...So there is no incentive to live right now when you can live like the Devil now and still have all that paradise has to offer. Again there should be no mistaking why this doctrine is so popular now days. My ears get warm and fuzzy just reading about it
Like I said, you make a weak argument because your view also allows the Christian to serve two masters and receive all that paradise has to offer only after a 1000 year prison term. I guess your view is more attractive because it would spare one from 1000 years of torture, but even so in the end they get to have all that heaven has to offer.
(BTW, we are not using the term "heaven" correctly here. Heaven is where all saints go until the ressurrection and then when we come back to earth, earth is where we will stay with Jesus) .
Which brings up another question. Are those who have already died and gone to heaven not all enjoying paradise right now? Are those who died with unworthy works happy right now and then when the ressurrection comes up they will go into torment then? If your view is correct I would have to think that you would also have to believe in "soul sleep" unless those "bad" Christians past are enjoying themselves right now or are having a longer prison sentence than 1000 years.
God Bless! :thumbs:
BobRyan said:
GE;
I don't believe it?!
JJump:
It's when you stop believing and when your faith is dead that there are problems.
Steaver:
You are saying here, that one can stop believing in Jesus Christ and still be saved but lose their reward?
GE:
For an elect to 'stop believing'; to have a 'dead faith'?
However, JJump doesn't - here at least - say anything about 'one can stop believing in Jesus Christ and still be saved', or 'lose reward'. If he did, I am dumbfounded - as dumbfounded as for his saying "when you stop believing" et al.
It's when you stop believing and when your faith is dead that there are problems.
Steaver:
You are saying here, that one can stop believing in Jesus Christ and still be saved but lose their reward?
GE:
For an elect to 'stop believing'; to have a 'dead faith'?
However, JJump doesn't - here at least - say anything about 'one can stop believing in Jesus Christ and still be saved', or 'lose reward'. If he did, I am dumbfounded - as dumbfounded as for his saying "when you stop believing" et al.
Steaver:
"(BTW, we are not using the term "heaven" correctly here. Heaven is where all saints go until the ressurrection and then when we come back to earth, earth is where we will stay with Jesus) ."
GE:
Won't you start another thread for this one?
"(BTW, we are not using the term "heaven" correctly here. Heaven is where all saints go until the ressurrection and then when we come back to earth, earth is where we will stay with Jesus) ."
GE:
Won't you start another thread for this one?
steaver said:
GE:
I see -- so so, 'people like trees ...' or is it trees like people? Poor trees!
"The contention is Jump believes the born of God can suffer the loss of their soul and be placed in torment for the 1000 years Christ reigns on earth if they fail to have worthy works for our Lord after regeneration."
GE:
I don't understand a thing!
Steaver:
I on the other hand believe that all of the born of God will be in the 1000year reign of Christ on earth and there is no torment asigned to any of the born of God.
GE:
All of the born of God (all partakers in the First Resurrection), quoting John, "reigned the Thousand Years with Christ ... on thrones ... those .... beheaded .... etc.". "Reigned", quote: "This the First Resurrection".
"Witnesses for the faith of Jesus" they all were - co-sufferers with and in their Forerunner in the Faith, even Christ crucified ... but raised from the dead again" "the First Fruit" of them that "came to life / lived during the Thousand Years".
Isn't it easy enough? Must it be complicated; must it be a source of disconcert and disharmony, of spiritual kakaphony?
OHM:
"All sin was not forgiven at the cross. Christ is currently acting as our High Priest and Mediator. If there was no need to deal with sin after eternal salvation is complete then there would be no need for a High Priest and Mediator. There would be no need for I John 1:9"
GE:
Full atonement = forgiveness was wrought through Christ 'on / 'at' the cross'. That's one truth of the Gospel no shadow of a doubt about could exist! Full salvation is full forgiveness of sin. "Christ ... currently acting as our High Priest and Mediator" means he 'acts' on behalf of 'US' - "as 'OUR' High Priest and Mediator". Christ acts not High Priest and Mediator for any but the saved, the atoned, the forgiven. Nowhere in the NT can it be shown where Christ acts as High Priest and Mediator for any but the saved, 'currently', or acted High Priest and Mediator for any but the saved at any time!
There is no need to deal with sin after eternal salvation had been completed, which is precisely what happened on Calvary two thousand years ago! Then the only thing that remains is for the beneficiary to draw on his bequaithment. That's why we ask for our forgiveness received in Christ who offered His Life obtained through death, before our Father in heaven.
"All sin was not forgiven at the cross. Christ is currently acting as our High Priest and Mediator. If there was no need to deal with sin after eternal salvation is complete then there would be no need for a High Priest and Mediator. There would be no need for I John 1:9"
GE:
Full atonement = forgiveness was wrought through Christ 'on / 'at' the cross'. That's one truth of the Gospel no shadow of a doubt about could exist! Full salvation is full forgiveness of sin. "Christ ... currently acting as our High Priest and Mediator" means he 'acts' on behalf of 'US' - "as 'OUR' High Priest and Mediator". Christ acts not High Priest and Mediator for any but the saved, the atoned, the forgiven. Nowhere in the NT can it be shown where Christ acts as High Priest and Mediator for any but the saved, 'currently', or acted High Priest and Mediator for any but the saved at any time!
There is no need to deal with sin after eternal salvation had been completed, which is precisely what happened on Calvary two thousand years ago! Then the only thing that remains is for the beneficiary to draw on his bequaithment. That's why we ask for our forgiveness received in Christ who offered His Life obtained through death, before our Father in heaven.
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