Matt 7's "I never knew you" continued

[steaver]

Quote: (steaver)
This very answer of yours validates my argument. You teach something that leaves the student with nothing more than serve Jesus or suffer a 1000 years of torture!


(Lacy)....If it is the truth, then it matters not how terrible the doctrine is.

At least you do not argue that what I said is the truth of the matter.

(Lacy)...I know my works will be accepted when they are done in faith, perserverance, watchfulness, mercy, and hope!(1 Corinthians 3:14; Colossians 3:23; Hebrews 11:6 )

I just argued the same thing to brother Jump but he responded with...."Well don't you think that casting out demons was equally as "good" as leading someone to the Lord?"

Jump says I cannot know if my works of leading others to the Lord will be accepted or rejected. Hope of Glory said that those in Matt 7 were "sincere believers" who thought they done good but are rejected. So how do you guys know for sure you will be accepted when you teach others that their works may not be? You guy's standards are all over the board! "Yes, you can know", "Well, no you don't know". "Matt 7 they thought they done good", "they were sincere".........What is it man?! Why are you confident you will be approved and then tell me I won't know for sure?

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....I was merely giving you an example of people that thought there works were good and were fully expecting a positive response from their Lord. And they did not receive it.

You think your works are good. You are fully expecting a positive response from your Lord. From this example you site in scripture, how can you feel that you have any more hope than they did? They "thought" and so do you. They "fully expected" and so do you. Hope of Glory said they were "sincere" and so are you.

What are you left with brother? You have NO hope in your pov! Zero!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Lacy Evans]

What is it man?! Why are you confident you will be approved and then tell me I won't know for sure?

What a hatchet job! Did you even read my whole post and the scriptures I provided?

I already answered your question as best as I could.

Refute my answer! Agree to disagree with my answer! But don't ignore it and keep asking the same question over and over. It's very time consuming and we're supposed to be redeeming the time.


Here it is again in it's entirety

Originally Posted by steaver
Ah, there is what I REALLY asked....."Where is the line"?

"I have asked the questions necessary to show the viewer the error in your views. I even know that you cannot answer because the scriptures do not provide the answers needed to support your view."

This question refutes the doctrine? How come we don't hear anyone vehemently rejecting the doctrine of "rewards", because you can't actually KNOW what reward you get until your time is finished.

God rewards Christians according to their work?????!!! Preposterous!!! Where is the line I must cross to have absolute assurance that I will receive a reward.????


Why is it that the only time an honest question of a "line" in our behavior comes up is when the doctrine of (severe) negative reward (for severe, unrepented-of, negative behavior.)

This very answer of yours validates my argument. You teach something that leaves the student with nothing more than serve Jesus or suffer a 1000 years of torture!

If it is the truth, then it matters not how terrible the doctrine is.


2 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Oh, and btw, nobody knows for sure if your works will be accepted. That is not what I see our Lord teaching His children in the scriptures.

I know my works will be accepted when they are done in faith, perserverance, watchfulness, mercy, and hope!(1 Corinthians 3:14; Colossians 3:23; Hebrews 11:6 )

I also know if I show no fruit, that my lack of works will be rewarded. (Matt 25:24-30

If my works are evil, then my evil works will be rewarded. (2Pet 2:12, 13; Isaiah 3:11; Galatians 5:21; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:9)


What I don't know is how I will finish. Neither did Paul. (1 Cor 9:27; 2 Cor 5:9-11; Phil 3:11-15; Heb 4:11)

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

You think your works are good. You are fully expecting a positive response from your Lord. From this example you site in scripture, how can you feel that you have any more hope than they did? They "thought" and so do you. They "fully expected" and so do you. Hope of Glory said they were "sincere" and so are you.

What are you left with brother? You have NO hope in your pov! Zero!

God Bless! :thumbs:

The fact that assurance is not absolute when it concerns rewards does not prove the doctrine of rewards wrong. We are talking about rewards NOT SALVATION!

How sure are you that you will get jewells in your crown? How sure are you that God will never ever discipline you from now until you die?

Our salvation can be absolutely assured because the work it is based on (Christ's on the cross) is absolutely perfect.

Our reward can never be absolutely assured. It is based on our own works after salvation. We can only be relatively sure as we examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5; 1 Corinthians 11:31; Galatians 6:4; Revelation 3:2-3).

We can only be relatively sure because our own works are often tainted with pride, ambition, and flesh.

Do you believe that you will be rewarded according to your works?

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 Ifany man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 Ifany man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

How sure is that? When will you know? What is the line?

Lacy

 

[BobRyan]

The fact that assurance is not absolute when it concerns rewards does not prove the doctrine of rewards wrong. We are talking about rewards NOT SALVATION!

There is nothing in Matt 7 saying "this talks about the amount of candy you get in heaven - it does not mean you are not saved".

NOTHING in Matt 7 says "DEPART from Me I NEVER KNEW you is just my of saying COME YE BLESSED OF MY FATHER ENTER HEAVEN for salvation is APART from KNOWING ME as your SAVIOR"

This is increadibly obvious to the objective unbiased reader.

How had you hoped to get around it??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

This is increadibly obvious to the objective unbiased reader.

Well seeings that you are neither objective or unbiased how can it be obvious to you :laugh:. With all due respect you are about as biased and closed minded as they come.

And the problem is you think the next age is eternity. Eternity is not the "next life." That's why you make so many mistakes with the texts.

And instead of dealing with what people "actually" say you add your biased commentary with you smurk little comments. For example . . .

There is nothing in Matt 7 saying "this talks about the amount of candy you get in heaven

Lacy never said anything about the amount of candy one gets in heaven.

Matthew 7 is not talking about "heave" or "eternity" at all. It's talking about the judgment that awaits before the "next life," or "next age" begins and that is the kingdom age.

 

[Lacy Evans]

There is nothing in Matt 7 saying "this talks about the amount of candy you get in heaven - it does not mean you are not saved".

NOTHING in Matt 7 says "DEPART from Me I NEVER KNEW you is just my of saying COME YE BLESSED OF MY FATHER ENTER HEAVEN for salvation is APART from KNOWING ME as your SAVIOR"

This is increadibly obvious to the objective unbiased reader.

How had you hoped to get around it??

in Christ,

Bob

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Objective? Unbiased? Do you see Heaven or Eternity in this verse? The theme of the whole Sermon on The Mount is Christ's coming Kingdom and how to act to obtain it. Matt 5:3; 5:10; 5:12; 5:20; 5:19,20; 6:33, etc.

It it's talking about salvation in eternity or heaven (Which it isn't - it says KINGDOM!) then salvation is by works because there is no mention of any other way to get "saved" in the whole sermon.

Matthew 7:24-27
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


It's pure works and pure kingdom entrance from Chapter 5 to Chapter 7. That's unbiased. I'm just reading what it says.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Objective? Unbiased? Do you see Heaven or Eternity in this verse?

Yep "The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN"

And EVEN WORSE for your view - "DEPART from Me you workers of iniquity I NEVER KNEW YOU" can NOT be spun around into "WELCOME to HEAVEN without KNOWING Christ" as you have tried to bend the text so far.

Your "proof" that When Christ SAID "the Kingdom of HEAVEN" He did not really MEAN "heaven" is that you don't like HIS focus on "fruits" and on "works".

But the fact that His words ALSO debunk other false doctrine that you have does NOT form a kind of Proof that when He SAYS "Heaven" that is not what He means!!


Your "proof" that when Christ SAID "I never knew you" that this shows the person never known - "to be SAVED anyway"
is that you don't like HIS focus on "fruits" and on "works".

A truly innexplicably leap of logic on your part.

However the fact that His words ALSO debunk other false doctrines that you hold. That that fact is FAR from any kind of Proof that when He SAYS "I never knew you" HE means to show "salvation APART From knowing Christ" as you seem to need.

Basically you are arguing what you NEED to have read into the text - not what the text actually says!!

 

[J. Jump]

Yep "The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN"

Well again another text that doesn't support your view. The phrase "kingdom of heaven," is not a phrase that is speaking of "heaven" where God currently resides.

The actual translation should be "the kingdom of the heavens." This is talking about the sphere above the physical earth where Satan and the fallen angels are currently ruling from.

This phrase is used to describe the kingdom of Christ which is 1000 years in length not eternity.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Yep "The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN"

"The sun never sets upon the Kingdom of Britain"

Is that the same as saying "The son never sets upon Britain"

Yes or no?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Your "proof" that When Christ SAID "the Kingdom of HEAVEN" He did not really MEAN "heaven" is that you don't like HIS focus on "fruits" and on "works".

But the fact that His words ALSO debunk other false doctrine that you have does NOT form a kind of Proof that when He SAYS "Heaven" that is not what He means!!

I had to read that twice. Are you saying that salvation by faith-alone, apart from works, is a "false doctrine"?

If so, I'm with Steaver now! Where is the line?

 

[steaver]

(Lacy)....The fact that assurance is not absolute when it concerns rewards does not prove the doctrine of rewards wrong. We are talking about rewards NOT SALVATION!

I'm not sure you understand the pov's between Jump and myself. We both believe in a coming judgment of deeds for rewards to come for the believer. The difference is I do not believe in a 1000 year punishment for lack of deeds while Jump believes there is.

(Lacy)....Our reward can never be absolutely assured. It is based on our own works after salvation. We can only be relatively sure as we examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5; 1 Corinthians 11:31; Galatians 6:4; Revelation 3:2-3).

We can only be relatively sure because our own works are often tainted with pride, ambition, and flesh.

Amen brother! :thumbs: You see you and I agree on this. It is Jump who opposses this view. Jump believes he knows for sure that he will not be sent to the 1000 year torture chamber if he were to die today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steaver
What is it man?! Why are you confident you will be approved and then tell me I won't know for sure?



(Lacy)....What a hatchet job! Did you even read my whole post and the scriptures I provided?

It appears to me you say you know and you say you cannot know for sure in the same breath. You will have to clarify......

(Lacy)...Our reward can never be absolutely assured. It is based on our own works after salvation. We can only be relatively sure as we examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5; 1 Corinthians 11:31; Galatians 6:4; Revelation 3:2-3).

I know my works will be accepted when they are done in faith, perserverance, watchfulness, mercy, and hope!(1 Corinthians 3:14; Colossians 3:23; Hebrews 11:6 )

I also know if I show no fruit, that my lack of works will be rewarded. (Matt 25:24-30

If my works are evil, then my evil works will be rewarded. (2Pet 2:12, 13; Isaiah 3:11; Galatians 5:21; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:9)


What I don't know is how I will finish. Neither did Paul. (1 Cor 9:27; 2 Cor 5:9-11; Phil 3:11-15; Heb 4:11)

lacy

Do you see yourself saying "Our reward can never be absolutely assured." and then saying "I know my works will be accepted "?

Maybe I am just missing something. I am not sure if you believe the way Jump does or not. Maybe that is where I am getting your points confused. Let me just ask you to clear something up, do you know for sure, if you die today, that you will have worthy works and be accepted into the 1000 year reign of Christ? Jump says he knows for sure. Do you?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....Matthew 7 is not talking about "heaven" or "eternity" at all. It's talking about the judgment that awaits before the "next life," or "next age" begins and that is the kingdom age.

But don't forget Jump that it is speaking only of those believers who are found to have ZERO worthy works. They received Christ as Savior but never did even one worthy work to be accepted of Him.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Jump)....
I believe the biggest hurdle you face is the fact that you don't see that we are running a race, and if you do realize that you don't realize the purpose and you don't realize there is a prize that we are to be striving for. This is what you have eluded to in your postings.

I fully understand the race and the rewards. I fully disagree with adding torture to God's children because they fail to do enough worthy deeds. And to add insult to the injury, your pov also tells these poor souls that they can THINK they are doing good deeds for their Lord and still get the torture chamber! Boy, that sure is giving the student hope!

(Jump)...I don't know if you can or not. I'm not you. I was merely giving you an example of people that thought there works were good and were fully expecting a positive response from their Lord. And they did not receive it.

Jump you said if you were to die today you know for sure that your works will be accepted. You also have said that those believers spoken of in Matt 7 are those believers who have never had even one worthy work for Jesus.

So this makes you exempt from Matt 7, correct? Matt 7 cannot ever apply for yourself since you do have worthy works for Jesus, correct?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

Jump says he knows for sure.

I don't know 100%. If I gave that impression then I must apologize. A hope of glory is just that a hope. It's not 100% guaranteed. John says we can know that we have salvation, but it is within reason and within context of the rest of Scripture.

If I died today I truly believe that I will be found worthy. Now I could get to the day of judgment and be in the same boat as the Lord, Lord criers, but who would I be to argue with The Perfect Judge? If He deems me unworthy then I am unworthy.

However Scripture has laid out the plan and I'm going to die to self as best I can and I'm going to continue to believe and confess when I fail. And then it will be up to Him to determine where I go next on that day.

It simply is what it is. Not liking the doctrine for whatever reason you want to give simply doesn't change anything thing. That's just the way the matter is laid out. We can believe it and modify our lives accordingly or we can stick our heads in the sand and hope it's wrong.

As I have said before. If all of us are wrong then we have simply wasted whatever time we are alloted on this round ball when we cold have been enjoying all the world has to offer and then getting all that the next life has to offer as well.

So all in all its not that bad a deal even if we are wrong.

BUT if we are right . . . well . . . there are going to be some REALLY disappointed, regretful people after judgment day! That's simply a chance I don't want to take.

 

[J. Jump]

I fully understand the race and the rewards.

Of course you "think" you do, but just by your belief system that you have laid out that is not the case. You advocate a system of serving two masters without any repercussions. That's not Biblical. So your understandng at best is flawed.

Also we are to be striving for a prize at the end of our race and you have said that you could care less about the prize in past posts. You are not focused on rewards. That again shows you do not have a full understanding of what this race is all about and what lies out ahead.

Jump you said if you were to die today you know for sure that your works will be accepted.

Again if I said that, then I will eat crow as I can't say that with 100% accuracy. However I have all confidence that I have been walking worthy of my calling. And I am comfortable (dangerous word) in my state at this present time. I by all means have not arrived and I don't feel like my race is over, but should it end I am confident that I will be found worthy.

So this makes you exempt from Matt 7, correct?

If I am found to be worthy then yes Matthew 7 and the depart from me tag would not be directed at me.

 

[Lacy Evans]

It appears to me you say you know and you say you cannot know for sure in the same breath. You will have to clarify......

Maybe I am just missing something.

What you are missing is the word "WHEN" followed by the rest of the sentence which contains the qualifiers.

I said:

I know my works will be accepted when they are done in faith, perserverance, watchfulness, mercy, and hope!(1 Corinthians 3:14; Colossians 3:23; Hebrews 11:6 )

God tells us exactly how to enter into the Kingdom. We can be as confident of kingdom entrance, as we are confident that we are being obedient. Examine yourselves.

But we can't know exactly how mercy will play in our JSOC experience. Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.

Also we have no way of knowing exactly how God will weigh the gifts, knowlege, responsibility, personal influence, etc. Unto whom much is given, shall much be required.

I am not sure if you believe the way Jump does or not. Maybe that is where I am getting your points confused. Let me just ask you to clear something up, do you know for sure, if you die today, that you will have worthy works and be accepted into the 1000 year reign of Christ?

I said it before Kingdom inheritance is a reward. We can't know absolutely when it concerns reward. (Jump believes the same, trust me.)

Let me take you through a few scriptures where Paul speaks about this over the course of his ministry. Notice that the later it gets in his ministry, as he examines himself (He's the main one who taught us all how to act so he knew!), his assurance grows more positive.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Philippians 3:11-15
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

These three passages are laid out chronologically. It was not until late in Paul's ministry that he actually began to speak of having any sort of confidence that he would get in.

Lacy

PS. Steaver, let me just ask you to clear something up, do you know for sure, if you die today, that you will have worthy works and be accepted into the 1000 year reign of Christ?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Steaver:

""I'm not sure you understand the pov's between Jump and myself. We both believe in a coming judgment of deeds for rewards to come for the believer. The difference is I do not believe in a 1000 year punishment for lack of deeds while Jump believes there is."

GE:

At last I think I have caught up with you two!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Steaver:

"I'm not sure you understand the pov's between Jump and myself. We both believe in a coming judgment of deeds for rewards to come for the believer. The difference is I do not believe in a 1000 year punishment for lack of deeds while Jump believes there is."

GE:

And again have completely lost you ...

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Barth has said there's no bridge between faith and unbelief but the bridge of confession.
Now I see there's no bridge between understanding and understanding than the bridge of confession.

So I'll confess how I see it. The saved (or elect) are judged in Jesus Christ for both their justification / righteousness and works / deeds. So Jesus said the plain truth they shall not come into judgement - whatsoever, whenever. In the last day the just are judged In Christ! So are their works - even Christ's own works are reckoned on behalf of the saints as theirs -- and shall be found perfect (the minimum requirement for 'heavenly' status. The wicked / lost / damned must receive judgment according to their, personally own, works and merits -- and shall be found wanting to 'heavenly' standards, and fit, for hell!

All, the judgment of the last day 'at the coming of Christ'.