Matt 7's "I never knew you" continued

[J. Jump]

Big difference in how we each use the words "hope of glory"

You are right and the only correct way is how the Scriptures use the words hope of glory and your view just doesn't fit.

If the word you speak is true and is of God, satan could not defeat it.

And he hasn't. And he won't. However he is going to take down as many as he can and the "church" is one of his best players today .

However it has stood defeated for quite some time, so i would say it is not of God.

How do you figure this doctrine is "defeated?"

It is? My view of Matt 7 is that Christ never knew them intimately as a child (saved). I don't know were you ever got a works-based salvation out of that.

Well seeings as the whole text is talking about their WORKS. If you are equating that text with eternal salvation then you are preaching a WORKS-based eternal salvation plan. The context is WORKS. You can not deny that. Well I guess you can, but it doesn't make the context go away.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...How do you figure this doctrine is "defeated?"

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." (Acts 5)

I asked my brother and his former pastor to give me an outline of who first taught this doctrine and how it has flourished throughout the centuries. They could not. Can you show me how it has grown throughout the centuries as did Christianity itself?

(Jump)...Well seeings as the whole text is talking about their WORKS. If you are equating that text with eternal salvation then you are preaching a WORKS-based eternal salvation plan. The context is WORKS. You can not deny that. Well I guess you can, but it doesn't make the context go away.

Anyone claiming WORKS in the name of Jesus as a plea are shown to be WITHOUT a personal relationship with Him through rebirth (never knew you) and will be rejected.

God Bless!

 

[Lacy Evans]

...the latter...

God Bless!

Well I thought so, but I had to ask.

What kind of reward do you hope to get at the JSOC?

Again just curious.

But whatever you answer my next question will be, "How can you be absolutely sure that you will get the best reward, the most jewelled crown, possible?"

If not absolutely 100% sure, then according to your statements above, you will be forced to throw out the whole doctrine of Reward due to hopelessness and meaninglessness.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

LAcy

 

[BobRyan]

[/size]
It's called the Greek language Bob. Every instance where the phrase kingdom of heaven is in Matthew it is articular meaning it has a "the" before heaven and heaven is ALWAYS plural.

The LEAP away from reason is that this is NOT heaven!!

The LEAP away from light is that when Paul is caught up to the THIRD heaven -- this is not REALLY heaven if there is more than one context for it.

The LEAP away from scripture is that "Satan is in charge of HEAVEN" as you have stated.

The LEAP of logic

I can't remember the actual reference, but Paul says that our treasures are being stored up in heaven. That is actually articular and plural as well.

You have imagined far tooo many "heaven that is not heaven" in scripture sir.

Stop trying to twist the scripture around --

in Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

Stop trying to twist the scripture around

You know I was going to respond to your post, but it's pointless. If you can't even accept what the "actual" Greek word is then there is no use even continuing.

Best of luck in your works-based theology.

 

[BobRyan]

Again you are being cleaver instead of responding to the point. You are arguing for plural heavens - I AM SHOWING that this is a distinction without a difference because EVEN in that context (the THIRD heaven) Paul argues this is REAL heaven.

You keep trying straw man after straw man to hang your doctrine on - and it is not working. Building a list of "heaven is not heaven" when it is referenced as the reward of the saints - does not work in scripture.

 

[J. Jump]

I asked my brother and his former pastor to give me an outline of who first taught this doctrine and how it has flourished throughout the centuries. They could not. Can you show me how it has grown throughout the centuries as did Christianity itself?

First of all there is no requiremet in Scripture for something to have to be shown in written form down through the centuries in order to be true. You just keep heeping non-Biblical requirement after requirement.

First you want an absolute answer to a question that is of no matter. And now you want "proof" from men that this doctrine is true.

But just for the record this doctrine is not fourishing. It has been on a downhill trend since the beginning. Truth doesn't start small and then continue on an unlimited growth plan. Truth starts small, grows and then declines.

Christ as the question will I find the faith on the earth when I return. The structure of the question demands a negative answer, meaning no He will not find the faith on the earth when He returns.

"The faith" has to do with the gospel of the kingdom. And so the closer He gets to returning the less you will find the Truth of His coming kigdom.

The same thing happened in Israel. They were given the Truth of God, but by the time Jesus arrived on the scene their theology was so messed up they didn't even see the King standing before them.

They same is happening today.

Anyone claiming WORKS in the name of Jesus as a plea are shown to be WITHOUT a personal relationship with Him through rebirth (never knew you) and will be rejected.

Problem is the text never says that. Jesus never addresses their eternal salvation. By the way eternal salvation doesn't have anything to do with a "personal relationship."

Eternal salvation is about believing (one-time event) in the Substitutionary death and shed blood of the Lamb of God, Who died and shed His blood on behalf of the sinner.

The relationship can ONLY begin after believing has taken place. And just because someone believes doesn't mean they automatically have an ongoing relationship. Relationships are a two-way street. There must be cooperation between both parties.

Just because these were rejected in NO WAY indicates they were never eternally saved. It only indicates that they were more interested in doing the "works" they wanted to do instead of the will of the Father.

And just to put the wraps on this text and prove once again it has nothing to do with eternal salvation:

Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

This text is talking about "entrance" into the kingdom. That is based on who does the will of my Father not believing on the Substitutionary death of the Lamb of God.

 

[J. Jump]

Again you are being cleaver instead of responding to the point.

The point is Bob that you don't want to deal in reality. The word is plural. It's NOT the same word as the singular heaven. What you are saying is God isn't smart enough to use the right words. Sorry, but He is. And when He uses a different word it's for a reason.

You are the one that brought up Paul being caught up into the third heaven. I never even mentioned this. Heaven where God resides is never referred to in the plural. It is ALWAYS singular unless you can show otherwise.

So when heaven is in the plural it is talking about something else.

Unless you want to deal in the reality of what Scripture actually "says," not what man says Scripture says then there is no point in going any further.

 

[Lacy Evans]

[/size]

The LEAP away from reason is that this is NOT heaven!!

The LEAP away from light is that when Paul is caught up to the THIRD heaven -- this is not REALLY heaven if there is more than one context for it.

What in the world does this verse have to do with the phrase, "The Kingdom of Heaven"? It is absolutely unrelated to our conversation. I said "The KINGDOM of Heaven" is not the same as "Heaven". I gave abundant logical scriptural support, and you come off saying we don't believe "Heaven" means "Heaven"?

You are getting very adept at explaining to us what we believe instead of listening, and reading what we really do believe. It's quite annoying.

The LEAP away from scripture is that "Satan is in charge of HEAVEN" as you have stated.

He said that right now Satan is the god of this world, but that one day soon Christ would come down and reign with redeemed men.

You either have a comprehension problem, an imagination problem, or a problem with the truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
The LEAP away from scripture is that "Satan is in charge of HEAVEN" as you have stated.

Lacy said
He said that right now Satan is the god of this world, but that one day soon Christ would come down and reign with redeemed men.

You either have a comprehensiopn problem, an imagination problem, or a problem with the truth.

2Cor 4 states that Satan is the god of this world and Eph 2 says he is the "prince of the power of the air" but NO TEXT says "he rules heaven".

RATHER what we find in Rev 12 is "there was WAR in HEAVEN and Satan and his angels were CAST OUT for there was no place for them there" and WHERE were they cast according to Rev 12??? "MORE HEAVEN??"" -- no it says "WOE WOE WOE you who dwell on the earth!!".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The point is Bob that you don't want to deal in reality. The word is plural. It's NOT the same word as the singular heaven. What you are saying is God isn't smart enough to use the right words.

wrong. That is you minicing words it is not God doing anything.

My claim is that "KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" is in fact a message about HEAVEN!!

You "need" to deny it so you can protect OSAS - I don't.

You are the one that brought up Paul being caught up into the third heaven. I never even mentioned this.

I am simply pointint out that the fact that Paul recognizes a plural context for heaven does not negate the fact that he is talking about REAL heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What in the world does this verse have to do with the phrase, "The Kingdom of Heaven"? It is absolutely unrelated to our conversation. I said "The KINGDOM of Heaven" is not the same as "Heaven".

It is the SAME word (Father who is IN HEAVEN") and "Kingdom OF Heaven" for heaven. Your "Bible translators got it wrong - it should be THE kingdom of THE heaven" is silly.

Matt 7:11
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Ouranos

as in Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[Lacy Evans]

2Cor 4 states that Satan is the god of this world and Eph 2 says he is the "prince of the power of the air" but NO TEXT says "he rules heaven".

What definition of Heaven are you using? Because "the air" is one of the heavens. and the war is in Heaven. Satan walks with the sons of God (Job 1)

RATHER what we find in Rev 12 is "there was WAR in HEAVEN and Satan and his angels were CAST OUT for there was no place for them there" and WHERE were they cast according to Rev 12??? "MORE HEAVEN??"" -- no it says "WOE WOE WOE you who dwell on the earth!!".

in Christ,

Bob

So what? All the devils and Satan are gonna be on the ground throwing rocks all the way up to heaven when this occurs? How will the war be in Heaven if Satan is on the ground? (Or did this already take place back in 1843)

PS Nice rabbit trail by the way

 

[Lacy Evans]

OK. All you did was prove that the phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" and the phrase "Heaven" both have the word "heaven" in them.

I gave specific reasons with Scriptural support to prove they are not the same. Can we get on with the debate?

It is the SAME word (Father who is IN HEAVEN") and "Kingdom OF Heaven" for heaven. Your "Bible translators got it wrong - it should be THE kingdom of THE heaven" is silly.

Matt 7:11
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Ouranos

as in Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[steaver]

(Lacy)...Well I thought so, but I had to ask.

What kind of reward do you hope to get at the JSOC?

Again just curious.

An incorruptible crown. A crown of righteousness. A crown of life. A crown of glory.

(Lacy)...But whatever you answer my next question will be, "How can you be absolutely sure that you will get the best reward, the most jewelled crown, possible?"

I'm not certain if one crown is of more value than another. I can be sure because I belong to Jesus Christ and God's word tells me I have them coming.

If not absolutely 100% sure, then according to your statements above, you will be forced to throw out the whole doctrine of Reward due to hopelessness and meaninglessness.

Well, I'm 100% sure!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Christ ask the question will I find the faith on the earth when I return. The structure of the question demands a negative answer, meaning no He will not find the faith on the earth when He returns.

When Christ returns, after the rapture and the seven year tribulation, He will certainly find only a little faith in proportion to all of the unsaved that are following and serving the Antichrist.

(Jump)..."The faith" has to do with the gospel of the kingdom. And so the closer He gets to returning the less you will find the Truth of His coming kigdom.

The same thing happened in Israel. They were given the Truth of God, but by the time Jesus arrived on the scene their theology was so messed up they didn't even see the King standing before them.

They same is happening today.

I can't speak on the entire world of believers, but the kingdom reign to come is preached in two of the churches in my area that I have attended. But I am sure you are probably right that it is neglected in many and will be as the time gets nearer.

Quote: (steaver)
Anyone claiming WORKS in the name of Jesus as a plea are shown to be WITHOUT a personal relationship with Him through rebirth (never knew you) and will be rejected.

(Jump)...Problem is the text never says that. Jesus never addresses their eternal salvation. By the way eternal salvation doesn't have anything to do with a "personal relationship."

"I never knew you" is an address of eternal salvation. We know this by other scriptures.

"Person relationship" is ALL about eternal salvation! Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Eternal salvation is about believing (one-time event) in the Substitutionary death and shed blood of the Lamb of God, Who died and shed His blood on behalf of the sinner.

And from that event (born again) is formed a everlasting personal relationship with Jesus CHrist.

The relationship can ONLY begin after believing has taken place. And just because someone believes doesn't mean they automatically have an ongoing relationship. Relationships are a two-way street. There must be cooperation between both parties.

I disagree here (latter part). Christ in you is very personal. Christ telling you daily what is right and what is wrong is very personal. One cannot, nor would want to escape the love they feel in Christ.

Just because these were rejected in NO WAY indicates they were never eternally saved. It only indicates that they were more interested in doing the "works" they wanted to do instead of the will of the Father.

In EVERY WAY it declares they NEVER had a relationship! Secondly, you said before that these criers of Lord, Lord had truly thought they had done good. Not they wanted to do their own works. Don't flip flop on me now :thumbs:

And just to put the wraps on this text and prove once again it has nothing to do with eternal salvation:

Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

This text is talking about "entrance" into the kingdom. That is based on who does the will of my Father not believing on the Substitutionary death of the Lamb of God.

The will of the Father is to believe on the Son and everything else will fall right into place! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

What definition of Heaven are you using? Because "the air" is one of the heavens. and the war is in Heaven. Satan walks with the sons of God (Job 1)

God is the maker of the Universe and of the 3rd heaven. This earth - our solar system etc is the first heaven that includes the air that we breath.

So what? All the devils and Satan are gonna be on the ground throwing rocks all the way up to heaven when this occurs? How will the war be in Heaven if Satan is on the ground? (Or did this already take place back in 1843)

PS Nice rabbit trail by the way

Cast out of HEAVEN is NOT a rabbit trail rather it SHOWS your logic to have failed.

in Rev 12 we see the birth of Christ and then Christ taken up to heaven (I hope you are not still waiting for the Messiah)...

Read the chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

OK. All you did was prove that the phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" and the phrase "Heaven" both have the word "heaven" in them.

I gave specific reasons with Scriptural support to prove they are not the same. Can we get on with the debate?

Sure - why not get to the part where you PROVE that heaven is not heaven in the verses I gave you since they use it FOR BOTH "Our FAther IN HEAVEN" and for "THE Kingdom of HEAVEN".

The idea that you have proven the Bible translators to all be wrong - still looks weak -- needs a bit of work.

Surely that does not surprise you.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lacy Evans]

Sure - why not get to the part where you PROVE that heaven is not heaven in the verses I gave you since they use it FOR BOTH "Our FAther IN HEAVEN" and for "THE Kingdom of HEAVEN".

The idea that you have proven the Bible translators to all be wrong - still looks weak -- needs a bit of work.

Surely that does not surprise you.

in Christ,

Bob

So is "God" and the "Kingdom of God" the same?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,


I have a book- "The Rod" by J.D. Faust. In Page 77-78, he wrote:

They are repeated in general to saints throughout all of the New Testament. Jesus warns true believers about missing[emphasis mine] the future millennial kingdom (Matthew 5:20, 7:21, 13:41; 18:3, 23, 35, 19:23-25, 22:2, 13, 25:1, 11-13, Mark 9:38, 47, 10:15, 23, Luke 9:62, 13:23-28, 14:15, 24, 18:17, 24, 19:12, 26). So does the apostle Paul (Acts 14:22, 1 Corinthians 6:9, Galatians 5:21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Thessalonians 2:12, 2 Thessalonians 1:5, Hebrews 3:14, 19, 4:1, 11, 12:28)!

None all of these, He quoted them, are mentioned of a thousand years. He just added unto them in his own guesswork.

Also, in page 78, he said:

Proof That the Kingdom Can be Missed

There are many passages in the Bible that plainly teach that disobedient Christians are in danger of missing the millennial kingdom:

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Christ is here addressing His disciples who already believe upon Him(John 3:16). The strait gate is entrance into the millennium.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Believers who walk in disobedience are in danger of missing the kingdom.

His interpreting of N.T. verses are all errors.

None all of these are mentioned of a thousand years.

Matthew 7:13 saying nothing anything about a thousand years. It speaks of entering the narrow road toward future eternality destiny for eternal life.

Matthew 7:21 say nothing of a thousand years. The context of Matt. 7:21-23 discusses about great white throne, many shall saying to Christ that, they did wonderful works for Him. But, Christ shall tell them, "I never knew you", obivously, He will saying to religions included baptists, who doing good works, but remain in their iniquity without repentance, shall be cast away into the lake of fire.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!