Matt 7's "I never knew you" continued

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

"Originally Posted by BobRyan
It is the SAME word (Father who is IN HEAVEN") and "Kingdom OF Heaven" for heaven. Your "Bible translators got it wrong - it should be THE kingdom of THE heaven" is silly.

Matt 7:11
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Ouranos

as in Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "

GE:

'Ouranos' - in Homer the vault or firmanent of heaven, the sky represented as a concave hemisphere on which the sun performed its course; the stars too were fixed upon it and revolved with it; as the seat of the gods above this vault; the gate of heaven - thick cloud which the Hours lifted or put down (Classic Dictionary)


In Mt7:21 it literally is the kingdom "OF the heavenS" Pl. Gn.
"Father who is in the heavens" (Pl.Dt.) God is everywhere; there is nowhere where God is not present. Only in Jesus Christ is God present on only earth as He is in heaven.

I said it before, BR would not have it - God is not where heaven is; heaven is where God is.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Lacy:

"If not absolutely 100% sure, then according to your statements above, you will be forced to throw out the whole doctrine of Reward due to hopelessness and meaninglessness."

GE:

Jesus Christ is the Reward of the saved; their only Crown of Glory.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Bob Ryan:

" You are arguing for plural heavens - I AM SHOWING that this is a distinction without a difference because EVEN in that context (the THIRD heaven) Paul argues this is REAL heaven."

GE:

'Real heaven': Where 'Real Heaven' on this earth in the garden of Gethsemene entered through the door of the grave of one Joseph of Arimathea's where right there in glory of the Father the Son of Man rose from the dead and entered into the Rest of God, exalted above every name that is named not only in this world but also in the world that is to come.

 

[BobRyan]

I never claim that ANY point is beyond GE's ability for story-telling and allegorizing into nothingness.

GE may I suggest some attention to poetry in your case?

 

[J. Jump]

"I never knew you" is an address of eternal salvation. We know this by other scriptures.

Then you are only left with one option and that is the option of a works-based salvation. The reason they got the I never knew you was based on their "works." They didn't have the right kind of works. Works is the context. You can not escape that.

At least BobRyan is honest and readily admits that he believes in and teaches a works-based salvation. You are trying to have your cake and eat it to and it doesn't work.

You try to say that eternal salvation is not based on one's work, but yet you use this Scripture to support your views and it just doesn't fit.

"Person relationship" is ALL about eternal salvation!

No it's not. Faith in the Substitutionary death and shed blood on your behalf a sinner is eternal salvation. NOTHING else or Scripture is a lie.

A personal relationship can and should result from eternal salvation.

And from that event (born again) is formed a everlasting personal relationship with Jesus CHrist.

Well you are correct in that a personal relationship is formed because of our birth. However there is no guarantee that the relationship will be nourished and growing. Again relationships are about cooperation on the part of BOTH parties.

I disagree here (latter part).

What a surprise.

Christ in you is very personal. Christ telling you daily what is right and what is wrong is very personal. One cannot, nor would want to escape the love they feel in Christ.

Christ can tell you daily what is right and what is wrong, but that is no guarantee that someone is going to listen and even if they listen that is no guarantee that they are going to obey.

In EVERY WAY it declares they NEVER had a relationship!

Based on works. So again you are only left with the option of works-based salvation. Nothing is said of them failing to believe what God had said regarding eternal salvation. That is speculation at best on your part. At worst it is adding to Scripture that which is not there. Either way your view doesn't fit.

Secondly, you said before that these criers of Lord, Lord had truly thought they had done good. Not they wanted to do their own works. Don't flip flop on me now :thumbs:

They did truly think they would be accepted. But the reality is they weren't doing the will of the Father, but they were doing their own thing. There are going to be many folks that on that day thought they were doing the will of the Father and they will be told that in fact they weren't. There is no flip-flopping there. It's just the reality of Truth.

People are going to be surprised at what "good" works get burned as wood, hay and stubble, because they were only "good" in their eyes or the eyes of their peers, but not in the Eyes of the One that counts! And that goes for any and all eternally saved.

I'm just curious how can Satan cast himself out of someone? That's a question that no one has ever been able to answer that holds that this text is eternal salvation based. Especially when Christ said it was impossible.

The only answer I have ever gotten was they were lying about their works, which really cracked me up. It's amazing what people will do to hold onto their man-made doctrines.

The will of the Father is to believe on the Son and everything else will fall right into place!

Ah yes believing in the "Son." That is the key word. And believing on the "Son" has to do with rulership. Eternal salvation is not based on faith in the "Son," but in the finished works of Jesus Christ, THE LAMB. HUGE DIFFERENCE!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I never claim that ANY point is beyond GE's ability for story-telling and allegorizing into nothingness.

GE may I suggest some attention to poetry in your case?

GE:

I paid exact, attention to the Words of God in inter alia Eph1:19f; Ro6:4; Hb4:8-10 ... story-telling ... allegorizing into nothingness!

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...The reason they got the I never knew you was based on their "works." They didn't have the right kind of works. Works is the context. You can not escape that.

The REASON given by Jesus IS "I NEVER knew you".

Jesus THEN declares them "workers of iniquities" BECAUSE the criers wanted their works to justify them before God.

Jesus makes this clear when He says THEREFORE and describes those who are accepted and those who are the "workers of iniquities". Those "workers of iniquities" are those who have NO ROCK, NO FOUNDATION to build worthy works upon.

You are glued on the criers plea of works and cannot see why they were rejected in the first place! It is you dear brother who has no escape, you do not want to escape it so you just choose to ignore it.

(Jump)...Well you are correct in that a personal relationship is formed because of our birth. However there is no guarantee that the relationship will be nourished and growing. Again relationships are about cooperation on the part of BOTH parties.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Th 5:23)......."Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. (24)

(Jump)...Based on works. So again you are only left with the option of works-based salvation.

The CRIERS wanted a works-based salvation! And Jesus shot them down with "I never knew you".

Nothing is said of them failing to believe what God had said regarding eternal salvation.

It is the OBVIOUS conclusion having scripture interpret scripture and Jesus describing the workers of iniquities as having NO FOUNDATION IN CHRIST. That is regarding eternal salvation last I looked. NEVER having been known by Christ is regarding eternal salvation.

(Jump)...That is speculation at best on your part. At worst it is adding to Scripture that which is not there. Either way your view doesn't fit.

Come on brother, really. You of all people accussing another of speculation and add-ons. You take Matt 7 and declare it is speaking of the saved yet go on and on how salvation is of no mention. You take "I never knew you" and add to it "for your works". No mention of a thousand year reign with Christ but you speculate this is what it is. You have no point to make by inserting the idea of speculation and add-ons. The whole doctrine of "salvation of the soul" apart from salavtion of the spirit is quite a leap into speculation and add-ons in order to make head nor tails of it at all.

(Jump)...They did truly think they would be accepted. But the reality is they weren't doing the will of the Father, but they were doing their own thing. There are going to be many folks that on that day thought they were doing the will of the Father and they will be told that in fact they weren't. There is no flip-flopping there. It's just the reality of Truth.

No, no brother. This is where these kind of views show their true colors. It is one thing to say they sincerely thought they were doing good works but to their surprise found out they were not. It is totally another thing to say they "wanted" to do their own thing.

You see, the criers wanted to be saved so they pointed to their wonderful works in Jesus' name, the true view is that they were NOT sincere and they were just doing their own thing. The view that they thought they done good but did not is the wrong view. You let the true view slip out, the truth is in you brother , just let it speak naturally instead of trying to make the scriptures do cartwheels and such!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Eternal salvation is not based on faith in the "Son," but in the finished works of Jesus Christ, THE LAMB. HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Oh, then everyone is saved because Jesus finished His works. No need for faith in the Son.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Steaver:

"You see, the criers wanted to be saved so they pointed to their wonderful works in Jesus' name, the true view is that they were NOT sincere and they were just doing their own thing. The view that they thought they done good but did not is the wrong view."

GE:

'The criers' did good works - accomplished wonderfull things. Just like the five foolish vergins who did everything from the book. They came late, unfortunately; but it wouldn't have made a difference, the Bridegroom said, "I never knew you". His word is final; it, as such, explains everything. He never knew them, despite the fact they did nothing but good works in the Lord's Name.
Yea! see the nature of man rebel, and see the truth revealed!

 

[J. Jump]

Oh, then everyone is saved because Jesus finished His works. No need for faith in the Son.

Try sticking with what I said, not your sick twist on what I said.

Yes everyone that is eternally saved is saved based on the finished works of Jesus Christ, The Lamb.

I never said there is no need for faith in the Son. I said that didn't have anything to do with eternal salvation. There is a need for faith in the Son and that is a need for eternally saved folks.

 

[J. Jump]

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Th 5:23)......."Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. (24)

I love it when you all go to the Scriptures, because all you do is prove my point. The verb in 23 is subjunctive meaning its a possibility not a guarantee.

The REASON given by Jesus IS "I NEVER knew you".

He never knew then in regard to their works. They didn't have folks back then that were "faking" it. Why in the world would someone want to be "faking" it and bringing upon themselves persecution for following someone they really didn't believe in. That is just plain silly.

The CRIERS wanted a works-based salvation!

More speculation. The text doesn't say that.

It is the OBVIOUS conclusion having scripture interpret scripture and Jesus describing the workers of iniquities as having NO FOUNDATION IN CHRIST. That is regarding eternal salvation last I looked. NEVER having been known by Christ is regarding eternal salvation.

Well you are going to have a hard time proving Satan can cast himself out of someone.

Come on brother, really. You of all people accussing another of speculation and add-ons.

Yes really. You keep wanting folks to believe something that isn't there. Just deal with the text as it is written without the speculation. It doesn't support your view. But as you have said in a different post you aren't going to change your mind and you certainly haven't even come close to convincing me, so not sure what else is left to say.

You take "I never knew you" and add to it "for your works".

Sorry but works is the CONTEXT of the passage. That's not adding anything that is letting the text speak and me be silent. The judgment is based on works. There is NO JUDGMENT EVER where someone's eternal savlation is dependant upon their works EVER. NONE. Eternal salvation is based on what one does with the finished works of Jesus Christ, The Lamb on their behalf a sinner.

And that judgment is FINALIZED before a person ever dies. Once you stand before the Judge it will not be to see whether you are saved or not. That is determined before you die. Another reason your theory falls flat. These folks are at the judgment seat.

The whole doctrine of "salvation of the soul" apart from salavtion of the spirit is quite a leap into speculation and add-ons in order to make head nor tails of it at all.

Not according to Scripture and I'll take Scripture's Word over Steaver's word every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

It is totally another thing to say they "wanted" to do their own thing.

I didn't say they "wanted" to do their own thing. They thought they were doing the will of God, but it was shown to them that they were in fact doing their own will not the will of the Father. Their desire I'm sure was to do that which was right, but for whatever reason they did not.

Speaking to their desire is speculation on both of our parts. I don't know what they were thinking and neither do you. So we should just leave that conversation alone and again just focus on what the text says. And the test doesn't say what their desire was. But it does say what their expectations where, and they fully expected to be accepted by the Lord.

You see, the criers wanted to be saved so they pointed to their wonderful works in Jesus' name, the true view is that they were NOT sincere and they were just doing their own thing.

Again you can not speak with any certainty as to their sincereity. We don't know for sure whether they were sincere or not. And of course they wanted to be saved, but the rub is saved from what. You insist, incorrectly I would add, that they wanted to be saved from eternal damnation. However there is no support for that in the text. The vast majority of the focus of the gospel accounts is salvation for the kingdom.

Eternal salvation and kingdom salvation are not the same thing. Although Christendom would have us believe they are. But if that is the case then eternal salvation is based upon a cooperation between Christ's works and our works. But Christ said His works were finished and they are perfect, so there is no need for us to add anything to the picture.

The view that they thought they done good but did not is the wrong view.

Again according to the structure of the Greek text your statement is false. How could they expect to be accpted if they knew full well their works were evil?

By the way I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how Satan can cast himself out, especially when Christ said that was impossible.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...I never said there is no need for faith in the Son. I said that didn't have anything to do with eternal salvation. There is a need for faith in the Son and that is a need for eternally saved folks.

:tonofbricks:

And one wonders why the doctrine you preach just doesn't take hold of the sheep! My head hurts from all the merry go round. For the life of me I don't see how even one sheep can be led astray by this strange doctrine. Oh well! raying: for you!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Sure - why not get to the part where you PROVE that heaven is not heaven in the verses I gave you since they use it FOR BOTH "Our FAther IN HEAVEN" and for "THE Kingdom of HEAVEN".

The idea that you have proven the Bible translators to all be wrong - still looks weak -- needs a bit of work.

Surely that does not surprise you.

in Christ,

Bob

So are "God" and the "Kingdom of God" the same?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...The verb in 23 is subjunctive meaning its a possibility not a guarantee.

Good thing you know Greek better than any of the translaters did. I wonder why they did not translate that "may do it".

(Jump)...He never knew then in regard to their works.

Is that what you call speculative or add-ons? I thoroughly showed the breakdown in order that clearly explains the entire passage.

More speculation. The text doesn't say that.

But it does say "He never knew then in regard to their works". Ok for you, not ok for anybody else.

But it does say what their expectations where, and they fully expected to be accepted by the Lord.

It doesn't say that either my friend :thumbs:

Again you can not speak with any certainty as to their sincereity. We don't know for sure whether they were sincere or not.

That was Hope of Glory's words. i just repeated them because I thought you two believed the same way.

By the way I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how Satan can cast himself out, especially when Christ said that was impossible.

I saw you post this a couple of times and I don't know waht you are talking about, so if you want me to answer a question then put it into some detail and I will see what i can do.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

J Jump:

"There is a need for faith in the Son and that is a need for eternally saved folks."

GE:

That was well-said and my kind of seeing things too!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The wicked don't really need faith in the Son, do they? For to go to hell with? Faith in the Son saves.

 

[J. Jump]

And one wonders why the doctrine you preach just doesn't take hold of the sheep!

You need not wonder. I've already answered that question for you. It's Satanic attack on the Truth of Scripture. Always has been. Always will be. "Did God really say . . ."

My head hurts from all the merry go round.

Again just cause it makes your head spin is hardly proof that it's untrue.

For the life of me I don't see how even one sheep can be led astray by this strange doctrine.

They can't! You are not led astray by Truth!

Good thing you know Greek better than any of the translaters did. I wonder why they did not translate that "may do it".

Well let's just see how it was translated:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh wow it looks like they DID in fact translate it that way. Hmmmm . . .

But it does say "He never knew then in regard to their works". Ok for you, not ok for anybody else.

It's not okay for anyone including myself. WORKS is the CONTEXT! Again NOONE EVER will stand before the Judge to determine whether they were saved or not. That judgment comes while the person is still on earth. Judgment whether for the saved for for the lost is based on what type of rewards they will receive whether good or bad for the deeds done in the body whether good or bad.

Judgment is ALWAYS based on works anywhere you go in Scripture, including in Matthew 7. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!

It doesn't say that either my friend

Yes it does in the way the Greek sentence is structured. Again you can not get around what the actual langauge says. I don't make this stuff up it's just the details of the Koine Greek language. Now we can accept them and deal with it or we can ignore it.

Based on the way the sentence is structured they expected a positive answer. They expected to be accpeted.

I saw you post this a couple of times and I don't know waht you are talking about, so if you want me to answer a question then put it into some detail and I will see what i can do.

Sure. They said they cast out demons. Unsaved people can not cast out demons according to Scripture, so I'm still wondering how these folks can be eternally damned yet cast out demons. Christ said Satan can not cast himself out.

 

[steaver]

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh wow it looks like they DID in fact translate it that way. Hmmmm . . .

Why did you leave out the final word from Paul? ......."Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. (24)

See I don't get this. Either you are blinded or you purposefully make a conscience effort to leave certain things out or just refuse to deal with them. It puzzles me.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

Why did you leave out the final word from Paul?

So Paul's words in verse 23 are null and void because he overrides himself in verse 24 :laugh:.

See I don't get this. Either you are blinded or you purposefully make a conscience effort to leave certain things out or just refuse to deal with them. It puzzles me.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

J Jump:

"The verb in 23 is subjunctive meaning its a possibility not a guarantee."

GE:

Strictly grammatically, maybe, yes.
But faith prays not for possibility; it prays for the guaranteed - for what God through promise had given. In faith-language, the Subjunctive is strongest possible confirmation of surety and certainty. Each time!