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Featured Matthew 18:21-22

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by franklinmonroe, Oct 10, 2015.

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  1. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Matthew 18:21-22 (KJV) --
    Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him?
    till seven times?
    Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
    ​
    "Seventy times seven" is a good literal translation of the Greek. But probably not the best rendering for the 21st-century English reader. Wanna know why?​

    ​
     
    #1 franklinmonroe, Oct 10, 2015
  2. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. It's not your place to judge the word choice God gave. if the Greek says seventy times seven then that's how god wanted it, you have no business correcting God.
     
    #2 Jordan Kurecki, Oct 10, 2015
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You mean God, don't you?

    Don't get caught up in "word choices" as if translators don't make decisions all the time regarding word choices. Yes, even the KJV revisers made word choices.

    As the NET note says, and most of us realize --it means an "unlimited number of times."

    Oh, it's the Holy Spirit, not Holy Ghost. There are no such things as ghosts. And for you to refer to deity as a ghost is rather off-putting.
     
    #3 Rippon, Oct 11, 2015
  4. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Jordan, could your literal interpretation of the words "seventy times seven" be expressed mathematically as 70 x 7 = 490 ?

    Am I correct that you would be opposed to the NIV, NET, and other versions' rendering (that you assume could be mathematically expressed as 70 + 7 = 77) ? --
    Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times. (ESV)
    ​
    Do you view the KJV, NASB, and other versions' rendering of "seventy times seven" as being different and in contradiction to the NIV, ESV and other versions' translation of "seventy-seven times"?

    I would like to thank you in advance for answering these 3 questions!
     
    #4 franklinmonroe, Oct 11, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The term is not a mathematical formula. 7 is the number Jews used to indicate completion. Jesus is saying that you not only completely forgive all a person's transgressions, you continue to forgive his transgressions forever, to infinity. εβδομηκοντακις επτα is hyperbole meaning "unlimited" forgiveness.
     
    #5 TCassidy, Oct 11, 2015
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  6. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Brother Cassidy, I agree that the teaching of Jesus is unlimited forgiveness. However, there is an issue regarding reading comprehension of the English here.
     
    #6 franklinmonroe, Oct 11, 2015
  7. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    A little more patience, Brother Reformed. The point will soon be revealed.
     
    #7 franklinmonroe, Oct 11, 2015
  8. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain for us the reasons for any differences in the translations (if there really are any). Or, are the apparent differences simply a matter of different interpretation?
     
    #8 franklinmonroe, Oct 12, 2015
  9. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Would it be best to paraphrase the Greek words then as simply "unlimited times" or something similar? Or is it proper in your opinion that the Greek words be translated literally, as most versions have done?
     
    #9 franklinmonroe, Oct 12, 2015
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    As I firmly believe in both plenary and verbal inspiration I think translating the words as God inspired them is best. It is up to the preacher, teacher, or reader to research the issue and discover the meaning.
     
    #10 TCassidy, Oct 12, 2015
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  11. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    I am in full agreement with you. As I stated in the OP, the 3 English words "seventy times seven" is a good literal rendering of the 2 Greek words.

    Preachers and teachers can point readers to things that were missed when reading. However, it is possible that most preachers, teachers, and readers have all miss the same thing in Matthew 18:22. I have heard many sermons and lessons on this verse and they almost all make the same mistake.
     
    #11 franklinmonroe, Oct 12, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
  12. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Here is a clue: the Lord did not equivocate in Matthew 18:22.
     
    #12 franklinmonroe, Oct 12, 2015
  13. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    There in lies the rub. The Greek does not actually say "seventy times", although that would often be a perfectly good rendering of the Greek word. However, in this context that two-word English translation has caused a lot of people to misunderstand what was actually recorded by the Holy Spirit.
     
    #13 franklinmonroe, Oct 12, 2015
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    This is a growing problem among Baptists and especially Independent Baptists.

    Many Baptists have eschewed higher education (graduate and post graduate level) and the "dumbing down" of the pastors/preachers has become alarmingly evident in the past couple decades.

    It used to be that when God called a man to preach He also called that man to prepare. He enrolled in a good liberal arts college and got an accredited degree in a related field.

    He then enrolled in an accredited seminary and received his Master of Divinity degree. Many also continued with either a terminal professional degree (Doctor of Ministry) or moved over to a research degree (Master of Theology) and eventually a terminal research degree (Doctor of Theology).

    Today all too many pastors, if having any post secondary education at all, attended an unaccredited Bible College with no graduate education at all. And that has resulted in the stupid, hobby horse, doctrinally deficient pablum being preached in so many Baptist churches today. :(
     
    #14 TCassidy, Oct 12, 2015
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  15. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    And again, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Although the pitfall at this verse does not require intense training (nor Greek knowledge) to avoid, only careful reading.
     
    #15 franklinmonroe, Oct 12, 2015
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    εβδομηκοντακις is an adverb meaning "seventy." επτα is an undefined numerical adjective meaning "seven." It is where we get our word "heptad" meaning a group of seven, such as a week is a heptad of days, or seven days.

    The most literal translation would be something like "seventy sevens" or "seven seventies."

    But, again, it is not a mathematical formula. It is the way a 1st century Jew would say "completely." Just as the Creation week was complete on the 7th day, so the Jews though of 7 as being a way of indicating completeness. Thus we have "completely multiplied completeness." And that's a lot. :)
     
    #16 TCassidy, Oct 12, 2015
  17. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    I like those!
     
    #17 franklinmonroe, Oct 12, 2015
  18. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    The Greek adverb ἑβδομηκοντάκις (Strong's 1441, a hapax legomenon) is a variation of ἑβδομήκοντα (Strong's 1440) which is the ordinary word for "seventy" as found in Luke 10:1 for example.

    Also ἑπτάκις (Strong's 2034) is slightly different than ἑπτά (Strong's 2033) which is the ordinary word for "seven" as found in Matthew 12:45 and other verses. The Greek word ἑπτάκις is always rendered with the two English words "seven times" in the KJV.
     
    #18 franklinmonroe, Oct 12, 2015
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  19. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    When read with proper understanding the translation of "seventy times seven" is ambiguous and nonsensical in English, as it should be! (since the Greek is idiomatic)
     
    #19 franklinmonroe, Oct 12, 2015
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  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yeah, except ἑπτάκις is NOT the word used. The word used is ἑπτά. That is why I pointed out it is undefined numerical adjective. And please, throw away your Strongs. No one but a complete neophyte would use it.
     
    #20 TCassidy, Oct 12, 2015
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