Matthew 23:13

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Van View Post
Did anyone say people "get saved" by their own initiative? Nope so more misdirection and obfuscation.

Matthew 23:13 supports that some unregenerate people seek God and are willing or open to trusting in Christ. Thus the opposite view is unbiblical.

Only those chosen through their faith in the truth are placed, set apart, sanctified in Christ.

Luke 11:10, 13. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be open...........How much more will your heavenly father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him.'

We don't nullify what Scripture teaches elsewhere in order to prove a position.

Here we see people seeking, which demands a separate context from the seeking seen here:


Romans 3:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


The teaching you offer as a proof-text would be better understood as the response of God to those already in whatever relationship available to men at that time was.

We would also determine whether the "giving of the Spirit" in view in the proof-text spoke of the Eternal Indwelling of God, the filling of the Spirit (for purpose of empowerment for ministry), or simply bringing the individual into accordance with the will (spirit) of God.

Lastly, we try to determine whether a particular teaching has a prophetic importance or meaning.

For example, it is written...


John 20:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Is this a proof-text to show the disciples received the Comforter?

Couldn't be...


John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


The key to understanding and ending the Free Will debate is simply to understand that it is the Comforter that enlightens the natural mind to understand revealed truth. Prior to His ministry of glorifying Christ specifically, He ministered to men that which was made available, and empowered among them those chosen for ministry themselves.

So if we do not impose a context into a passage that is not there, then we can more easily determine whether men have the ability to seek after God in a salvific context or not. And since Scripture states they cannot...

...I just don't see what all the fuss is about.




God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was a bit rushed.
Van is claiming that unregenerate people were seeking Christ and that they were 'willing or open to trusting in Christ.' Now as you rightly say, this is not the case (John 3:19; Rom. 3:10ff). I was pointing out that everyone who genuinely seeks Christ will find Him (cf. also John 6:37b), but that no one will genuinely seek unless he is born again (John 6:65; 8:47 etc.).

 

[DHK]

Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was a bit rushed.
Van is claiming that unregenerate people were seeking Christ and that they were 'willing or open to trusting in Christ.' Now as you rightly say, this is not the case (John 3:19; Rom. 3:10ff). I was pointing out that everyone who genuinely seeks Christ will find Him (cf. also John 6:37b), but that no one will genuinely seek unless he is born again (John 6:65; 8:47 etc.).

You ability to pit one scripture against another scripture doesn't not in any way deny the truth of either scripture. It simply shows your inability to reconcile or harmonize what the Bible is saying. We have a command to "study to show ourselves approved unto God "rightly dividing the word of truth." The Word must be "rightly divided."
Where the picture is of a mason, a carpenter, or even a doctor, the one in the profession must be able to put the pieces together in a proper and orderly manner so that they all work together, harmonize together. I would hate to undergo heart surgery from a doctor who gets all the "pieces" mixed up when "sewing me back together."

It is obvious you have trouble with these scriptures:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

and
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

or:
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
--It is obvious man has the ability to seek the Lord for God has commanded him to.

 

[Reformed]

Matthew 23:13-36 is sort of a reverse Beatitudes. Jesus is not saying that the Pharisees are purposely trying to shut off the kingdom of heaven or preventing people from going in. What He is saying is that, by their actions, the Pharisees were a stumbling block (c.f. Matthew 18:1-11 on stumbling blocks). Their hypocrisy corrupted their message. It resulted in false converts to Judaism:

Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."

Matthew 23:13-36 should cause us to examine our words and deeds together.

 

[Darrell C]

You ability to pit one scripture against another scripture doesn't not in any way deny the truth of either scripture. It simply shows your inability to reconcile or harmonize what the Bible is saying. We have a command to "study to show ourselves approved unto God "rightly dividing the word of truth." The Word must be "rightly divided."
Where the picture is of a mason, a carpenter, or even a doctor, the one in the profession must be able to put the pieces together in a proper and orderly manner so that they all work together, harmonize together. I would hate to undergo heart surgery from a doctor who gets all the "pieces" mixed up when "sewing me back together."

It is obvious you have trouble with these scriptures:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

and
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

or:
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:


--It is obvious man has the ability to seek the Lord for God has commanded him to.

My focus will be...

--It is obvious man has the ability to seek the Lord for God has commanded him to.

The "seeking" that men did prior to Pentecost and apart from the Ministry of the Comforter have revelation that is quite distinct from each other. "Seeking" under an economy of Law meant obedience to the Law, this being exampled by the Lord, Who actually understood the spirit of the Law.

Throughout Scripture we see obedience to the Lord's will demanded, yet we have to distinguish between Ages in which each had particular revelation. This revelation was progressive, hence we do not ascribe those who had not had the Gospel of Christ revealed to them through the Comforter could not possibly be seeking after the Risen Savior.

Most of Israel eagerly anticipated Messiah's arrival, but not one understood that He came foremost to save them from their sins. They would not even understand the depth of their sin until that was revealed by the Comforter in His distinct Ministry of Conviction.

So we can maintain the Prophet's words...

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

...and know that we are not pitting Scripture against Scripture, simply keeping the available revelation in it's proper time.

The "seeking" in view, when God states "No one does this" is from an eternal perspective and has man's sin in view.

The "seeking" man can do is that which is also the response of the revelation God provided men, being the internal witness He has given every man, the testimony of Creation, and direct revelation as spoken and recorded by the Prophets.

But, obedience to the revelation provided, and to the Word provided, should not be equated to obedience to the Gospel.

All those in Old Testament Economies who were obedient to the revelation provided, who did "seek" after God according to the provision of God (revelation), did do what was possible for them in those Ages.

But, not one of them had remission of sins or union with God that awaited the Cross, Ascension, and sending of the Comforter. They were from an eternal perspective (those of faith) just as secure as we are being born again, but their transgressions remained. Only Christ could satisfy the penalty of sin on their behalf, even as He does ours when we are born again.

Which brings us back to...

--It is obvious man has the ability to seek the Lord for God has commanded him to.

I agree with that, but, we see throughout Scripture that not one man responds to God apart from God's intervention on their behalf. Thus we deny that the response (seeking) is due to man's ability, but to God.

Apart from the revelation God provides to men, they fulfill the Scripture which makes it clear...they have no such ability to seek after God.

And their free will operates within that fallen framework, until God reveals Himself to that person by His Spirit, enlightening them to their condition which causes two reactions, receiving or rejecting, which when received places them in a sphere of existence which was not something seen prior to that revelation.

So the statement...

--It is obvious man has the ability to seek the Lord for God has commanded him to.

...is true, but we have to be careful to remember that the command comes before the seeking. Left alone to his fallen nature, no man seeks after the Lord.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was a bit rushed.
Van is claiming that unregenerate people were seeking Christ and that they were 'willing or open to trusting in Christ.' Now as you rightly say, this is not the case (John 3:19; Rom. 3:10ff). I was pointing out that everyone who genuinely seeks Christ will find Him (cf. also John 6:37b), but that no one will genuinely seek unless he is born again (John 6:65; 8:47 etc.).

And I would have to disagree, based on the fact that the Comforter began a distinct ministry when He was sent, which took place only after Christ had Ascended and returned to Heaven.

The simple truths that impact our view of the "free will" debate, and should settle the matter, is that the New Birth was not available prior to Pentecost, as this was what was promised, and we do not ascribe fulfillment until those promises are realized.

The Ministry of the Holy Spirit is one of conviction, as stated here:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Now I post v.9 to point out this ministry is clearly directed at unbelievers, those who are not yet saved, not yet born again. The Comforter was sent to "glorify Christ," which in 2 Corinthians 2 we see that in view is the Gospel of Christ, or in other words, the Spirit reveals to men that Christ is the righteous Savior Who saves men from their sin.

This was prophesied of John...


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


...and reiterated by Christ which gives us when it was fulfilled...


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

It is the revelation of the Gospel to men through the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven that first enlightens for the purpose of conviction (which yields either reception or rejection), secondly saves (we are Baptized into Christ through the Union with God through Eternal Indwelling), and third, among those saved, testifies of Christ through those believers as well (though He does so independently as well, such as men reading or hearing the Gospel in the Word or on Radio, which still has Him ministering through men):


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


The Holy Spirit empowered men just as He does Christians today (we call this the "filling of the Holy Spirit" which is seen in all men empowered for ministry in the Old Testament (though perhaps not specifically stated)), but what we have to be careful of is the distinct revelation which is provided to men in each Age.

In the Old Testament, Christ was prophesied, but they could not read Isaiah 53 and understand it in it's proper context as we do.

If we read 2 Peter 2 we see false teachers who "knew the way of righteousness," yet there was no conversion (a dog was still a dog, a sow still a pig). Jude, having an identical parallel to Peter's words, makes it clear these were destined for destruction. So how do we ascribe them with understanding truth? Their ability? No. Because they came under the Convicting Ministry of the Comforter and rejected the Gospel. They "know not God and obey not the Gospel, but, that doesn't mean it has not been revealed to them.

And Peter distinguishes between the false prophet, which he states were around in former days, and the false teacher of our day. The key ingredient being they were...false. Not believers who lost their salvation, but wicked men who rejected the Comforter's Ministry, or, "done despite unto the Spirit of Grace," as the Writer of Hebrews states it.

Did men believe in Messiah in the Old Testament? Sure. Is that the same as believing in the Risen Savior? No. And Peter is the best example, for he was in opposition to the Gospel, and we see several times how he sought to avert the Lord's death, then, when the Messiah he wanted, and understood through the Prophecy, was taken...he denied even knowing him.

Keep the revelation distinct to the time it was given, and we will not debate about free will. No man in his fallen nature can seek after God, but must await the intervention of God. No man is regenerated prior to saving faith, they are enlightened.

And just as the Holy Spirit has always enlightened men in Old Testament Economies, so too He does today as well. The difference being in the revelation itself.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There is a difference between physical inability and moral inability.
I have no ability to walk on the ceiling; that is not my fault, God has simply not made me that way. That's the way I am. It's a physical thing. If I could I would. It sounds like fun.
But when wife-beaters/drug addicts/alcoholics/child molesters/homosexuals/kleptomaniacs say, "It's not my fault! It's just the way I am," we tell them, quite rightly, that it is their fault; they must do something about it. They must control themselves; they must seek help; they must turn to Christ.

The Bible makes it very clear that the natural, unconverted man does not seek God (John 5:40; 1 Cor. 2:14). The reason for that is not that God has made it impossible for him, but that he has a wicked unbelieving heart. He knows deep down that there is a God to whom he is answerable, but he will not seek Him (Rom 1:18-20) because he does not want to repent but to continue in his sins (John 3:19). It is not that he cannot physically come to Christ, but that he doesn't want to, and will not unless God changes his heart (Titus 3:3-7).

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I was a bit rushed.
Van is claiming that unregenerate people were seeking Christ and that they were 'willing or open to trusting in Christ.' Now as you rightly say, this is not the case (John 3:19; Rom. 3:10ff). I was pointing out that everyone who genuinely seeks Christ will find Him (cf. also John 6:37b), but that no one will genuinely seek unless he is born again (John 6:65; 8:47 etc.).

What we must do in the new testament scripture though is understand that while it is true that people were seeking jesus out for example to hear and see him, that was not the same as "coming to Him to get saved," as that works requires God to do his work first, and then they will come to him in that fashion!

 

[Yeshua1]

Think the main point martin is making here though is that unlike how van sees it, the sinner cannot by their own }free will" come unto Jesus in order to get saved by Him, as God himself must will and work beforehand for them to even desire to do that!

 

[Darrell C]

Think the main point martin is making here though is that unlike how van sees it, the sinner cannot by their own }free will" come unto Jesus in order to get saved by Him, as God himself must will and work beforehand for them to even desire to do that!

That is a basic truth that we see illustrated throughout Scripture: fallen man is dependent on the intervention of God before they can come into relationship with Him. And we distinguish between the relationship men enjoyed in Old Testament Economies with the Eternal Relationship provided in Christ. Those who deny relationship through the Law miss a glaring truth seen in the Old Testament. They were the People of God in that Economy, and a picture, or parable of what God would do in building the Church.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is a basic truth that we see illustrated throughout Scripture: fallen man is dependent on the intervention of God before they can come into relationship with Him. And we distinguish between the relationship men enjoyed in Old Testament Economies with the Eternal Relationship provided in Christ. Those who deny relationship through the Law miss a glaring truth seen in the Old Testament. They were the People of God in that Economy, and a picture, or parable of what God would do in building the Church.


God bless.

Yes, as that relationship they had under the old One was but a partial one, as compared to the full one that we now share with the coming/death/resurrection of the Messiah!