Matthew 26:24

[JD731]

Mt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

How does a statement like this by the creator, Jesus Christ, square with Calvinisms/Reformed teaching. In his sovereignty, as taught by Reformed people, did he determine something less than good in his own judgement of that man?

Should the Reformed repent of such a doctrine as determinism disguised as sovereignty?

 

[Van]

Should the Reformed repent of such a doctrine as determinism disguised as sovereignty?

It is difficult to find a Calvinist who will openly admit to the doctrine of exhaustive determinism, where every thought or act of every human is predestined, but that is actually what some believe.

They either do not know the bible teaches that some things happen by chance, or they deny the very words of God.

Yes, it would have been better for Judas to never have been born, then for him to be chosen to fulfill the "betrayer" prophesied by God. See Psalm 41:9 and Zechariah 11:12-13. Note the words of Christ in John 13:18.

For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him. It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!”
Matthew 26:24 NLT

 

[kyredneck]

did he determine something less than good in his own judgement of that man?

As written, this is a dumb question. Judas was 'a devil' and was miserably destroyed as that entire generation of serpents that murdered Christ was destroyed.

 

[kyredneck]

The scripture makes no bones that there was no forgiveness for the devils that murdered Christ:

14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thess 2

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished Lu 21

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Mt 21

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6
22 For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! Lu 22

 

[Dave G]

Mt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

How does a statement like this by the creator, Jesus Christ, square with Calvinisms/Reformed teaching. In his sovereignty, as taught by Reformed people, did he determine something less than good in his own judgement of that man?

I'm not "Reformed", but I'd like to comment on this.

Speaking of Judas, yes, it would have been better for him if he had not been born, as God's purpose for Judas was far different than His purposes for Peter, James and John for example.
JD, God's word teaches that He makes the rich and the poor ( 1 Samuel 2:7 ), He has chosen the poor of this world rich in faith ( James 2:5 ), and He has chosen to hide the things of the kingdom of God from the wise and prudent of this world, and has chosen to reveal them to "babes" ( Matthew 11:25-27 ). We also know from Romans 9 that He chooses to make one "vessel" unto mercy, and another one unto wrath...

Because He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.

That's what His word says, not "Reformed teaching".
So, it is not a "stretch" to say that He made Judas ( a wicked person according to the Scriptures ) for the day of evil, just as He spoke through David:

" The Lord hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." ( Proverbs 16:4 ).


Was this "good" in His sight?
Of course, as everything that He does is righteous, good and just in His sight, even if we ( as His rebellious creations ) think otherwise.

 

[JD731]

Should the Reformed repent of such a doctrine as determinism disguised as sovereignty?

It is difficult to find a Calvinist who will openly admit to the doctrine of exhaustive determinism, where every thought or act of every human is predestined, but that is actually what some believe.

They either do not know the bible teaches that some things happen by chance, or they deny the very words of God.

Yes, it would have been better for Judas to never have been born, then for him to be chosen to fulfill the "betrayer" prophesied by God. See Psalm 41:9 and Zechariah 11:12-13. Note the words of Christ in John 13:18.

For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him. It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!”
Matthew 26:24 NLT

My Bible does not say what your Bible says, so I can't compare. Where there are many books that are different, there is no authority, but many opinions. I am staying with one book and it is my authority for my doctrine. My Bible , for instance, did not say it would have been better, it says it had been good for that man (Judas) had he not been born.

The idea here is Judas was not compelled by God to betray Jesus Christ. However, in the providential will of God Judas was chosen by Jesus Christ to be a member of the twelve according to the omniscience of God. God in no way manipulated the will of man, including Judas, but he does direct history in spite of the opposition of the will of man. All 12 of these men desired the same things, the kingdom of God, because that is what Jesus preached and had them to preach to Israel and they trusted that Jesus came to be King and fulfill all the OT prophecies concerning his kingship at that time. They knew and understood nothing of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Judas self interest and corrupt character began to manifest itself when he began to realize that the kingdom would not appear through Jesus any time soon.

All the disciples were ready to quit the ministry and go back to their former occupations when Jesus died without a fight and they thought the kingdom was lost, at least for now. They did not figure on the resurrection and knew nothing of the ways of God. The difference between Judas and the eleven was their love for Jesus Christ. Judas was consumed with his own desires and was used of the devil to attempt to establish the kingdom in his own way. He put himself to death when he understood he would be the means of the death of Jesus Christ.

1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2 And when they had bound him, they led [him] away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter s field, to bury strangers in.
8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
10 And gave them for the potter s field, as the Lord appointed me.

 

[JD731]

As written, this is a dumb question. Judas was 'a devil' and was miserably destroyed as that entire generation of serpents that murdered Christ was destroyed.

I plead guilty of the charge of being dumb, but I do not confess to being ignorant.

 

[Van]

My Bible does not say what your Bible says, so I can't compare. Where there are many books that are different, there is no authority, but many opinions. I am staying with one book and it is my authority for my doctrine. My Bible , for instance, did not say it would have been better, it says it had been good for that man (Judas) had he not been born.

The idea here is Judas was not compelled by God to betray Jesus Christ. However, in the providential will of God Judas was chosen by Jesus Christ to be a member of the twelve according to the omniscience of God. God in no way manipulated the will of man, including Judas, but he does direct history in spite of the opposition of the will of man. All 12 of these men desired the same things, the kingdom of God, because that is what Jesus preached and had them to preach to Israel and they trusted that Jesus came to be King and fulfill all the OT prophecies concerning his kingship at that time. They knew and understood nothing of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Judas self interest and corrupt character began to manifest itself when he began to realize that the kingdom would not appear through Jesus any time soon.

All the disciples were ready to quit the ministry and go back to their former occupations when Jesus died without a fight and they thought the kingdom was lost, at least for now. They did not figure on the resurrection and knew nothing of the ways of God. The difference between Judas and the eleven was their love for Jesus Christ. Judas was consumed with his own desires and was used of the devil to attempt to establish the kingdom in his own way. He put himself to death when he understood he would be the means of the death of Jesus Christ.

1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2 And when they had bound him, they led [him] away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter s field, to bury strangers in.
8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
10 And gave them for the potter s field, as the Lord appointed me.

Even if we used the same primary study bible, we could understand its message differently.

Here are two translations of Matthew 26:24:
1) The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. KJV
2) The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” NKJV

As you can see, two groups of people, looking at the same underlying text understand it differently. One makes no sense, the other perfect sense.

As far as the translation choice of "good" or "better" the KJV favors "good" but also translates the word as "better" 7 times. To claim your translation provides authority and another version only provides opinion is provincial.

Next, your view is Judas was NOT compelled to betray Jesus. My view is both that Judas was well chosen as the sort of person who betrays others for his personal gain, and that once chosen to fulfill the prophecy of the "betrayer" he was indeed "compelled" to betray Jesus. God allowed Satan to compel Judas.

Final thought, it might be that it would be better if everyone entering Hades rather than Heaven had not been born. I have no support in scripture for the view, but it might be a logical conclusion from our verse.

 

[JD731]

Even if we used the same primary study bible, we could understand its message differently.

Here are two translations of Matthew 26:24:
1) The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. KJV
2) The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” NKJV

As you can see, two groups of people, looking at the same underlying text understand it differently. One makes no sense, the other perfect sense.

As far as the translation choice of "good" or "better" the KJV favors "good" but also translates the word as "better" 7 times. To claim your translation provides authority and another version only provides opinion is provincial.

Next, your view is Judas was NOT compelled to betray Jesus. My view is both that Judas was well chosen as the sort of person who betrays others for his personal gain, and that once chosen to fulfill the prophecy of the "betrayer" he was indeed "compelled" to betray Jesus. God allowed Satan to compel Judas.

Final thought, it might be that it would be better if everyone entering Hades rather than Heaven had not been born. I have no support in scripture for the view, but it might be a logical conclusion from our verse.

I appreciate that Van for the thoughtful response but I approach the scriptures a little differently from some on the discussion thread. I think God does things on absolutely precise timing as well as with precise words. We as mortal men must resist the temptation of relying on our own abilities to search out the mind of God, After all, Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 2, last verse, says we have the mind of Christ. I think God is displeased with religious men taking the unrestrained liberty of constant translations into the same language and paraphrases and dynamic equivalences and I think some people will be going to hell for doing it. Especially after God has said in 1 Cor 1:10 to let every man speak the same thing and no division when he comes and to be joined together in the same mind, which of course would be the mind of Christ. Translations, paraphrases, and dynamic equivalence of the same language hundreds of time is a source for division.
Another consideration that no one here seems to take into account is scriptural numeric. I did not say numerology. I know from my study over many years that God has a numerical value associated with his words and it is a source of affirming truth and comparison.

We find ourselves in an unusual time period in this age of grace where God is not judging men for disobedience and self expression apart from him. It is the age of grace after Jesus Christ through his sacrifice on the cross has reconciled all men unto himself and he does not impute sin to them while they live. Not many people believes this but it is what he says. What better time for unprincipled men to write a bunch of Bibles when God is not judging anyone for it and making it say whatever they want it to say! There has never been a time like this and it will not last forever.

Ecclesiastes 8:11
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

 

[Ben1445]

One makes no sense, the other perfect sense.

If it makes no sense, your English teacher was right, you have got a problem with grammar.

Now enforcing your poor standard and your understanding through that poor standard seems to be presumptuous.

Yep, yet another post attacking you and seemingly not the subject.

 

[Van]

I appreciate that Van for the thoughtful response but I approach the scriptures a little differently from some on the discussion thread. I think God does things on absolutely precise timing as well as with precise words. We as mortal men must resist the temptation of relying on our own abilities to search out the mind of God, After all, Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 2, last verse, says we have the mind of Christ. I think God is displeased with religious men taking the unrestrained liberty of constant translations into the same language and paraphrases and dynamic equivalences and I think some people will be going to hell for doing it. Especially after God has said in 1 Cor 1:10 to let every man speak the same thing and no division when he comes and to be joined together in the same mind, which of course would be the mind of Christ. Translations, paraphrases, and dynamic equivalence of the same language hundreds of time is a source for division.
Another consideration that no one here seems to take into account is scriptural numeric. I did not say numerology. I know from my study over many years that God has a numerical value associated with his words and it is a source of affirming truth and comparison.

We find ourselves in an unusual time period in this age of grace where God is not judging men for disobedience and self expression apart from him. It is the age of grace after Jesus Christ through his sacrifice on the cross has reconciled all men unto himself and he does not impute sin to them while they live. Not many people believes this but it is what he says. What better time for unprincipled men to write a bunch of Bibles when God is not judging anyone for it and making it say whatever you want it to say! There has never been a time like this and it will not last forever.

Ecclesiastes 8:11
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Obviously I disagree with your viewpoint. We are to study to show ourselves approved, accurately handling the word of truth. We are not to accept the translation by others as necessarily valid, no matter how old or well accepted.

To claim any view other than your own is fractious, is like instructing the Lord. He tells us to test the spirits, not buy into one and reject the rest.

Just as an example, take 1 Thessalonians 2:15, and the comment in post 3 that Christ was 'murdered." He was physically killed, having wrongly been condemned. But unless Jesus laid down His own life, could they have actually murdered Him? Nope So the verse says people killed Jesus, and these people were not pleasing to God, but hostile to the whole of humanity. They accepted the viewpoint that was prevalent, and did not really consider the revelation provided by Christ.

 

[Van]

If it makes no sense, your English teacher was right, you have got a problem with grammar.

Now enforcing your poor standard and your understanding through that poor standard seems to be presumptuous.

Yep, yet another post attacking you and seemingly not the subject.

With malice toward none, we are to stand firm against those attacking Christ, for they know not what they do.

"... it had been good for that man" does not match the tense of "if he had not been born." Thus the NKJV, "... it would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

"it had been" puts the action as accomplished in the past, rather than conditionally as an continuing action, would have been better.

Odd to claim the translation by the NASB, NKJV, NET, ESV, LEB, WEB, and on and on is a "poor standard."

 

[Ben1445]

With malice toward none, we are to stand firm against those attacking Christ, for they know not what they do.

I didn’t realize that you thought of yourself as Christ.
But there is no malice on my part. A bit of chiding, no doubt.
I haven’t seen anyone attacking Christ lately. I don’t remember the last JW that we had.

"... it had been good for that man" does not match the tense of "if he had not been born." Thus the NKJV, "... it would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

"it had been" puts the action as accomplished in the past, rather than conditionally as an continuing action, would have been better.

Odd that you have a hard time figuring out what this means in KJV English. I don’t see how the meaning of this is changed at all.

Odd to claim the translation by the NASB, NKJV, NET, ESV, LEB, WEB, and on and on is a "poor standard."

Not so odd. Modern English has a poor standard.

 

[Van]

I didn’t realize that you thought of yourself as Christ.
But there is no malice on my part. A bit of chiding, no doubt.
I haven’t seen anyone attacking Christ lately. I don’t remember the last JW that we had.


Odd that you have a hard time figuring out what this means in KJV English. I don’t see how the meaning of this is changed at all.

Not so odd. Modern English has a poor standard.

Did I say I thouht I was Christ, or did you imply I thought I was Christ?
.
Anyone who thinks the NASB, NKJV, NET, ESV, LEB and WEB are all wrong in their translation of Matthew 26:24 and the KJV is right has another think coming.

 

[Ben1445]

Did I say I thouht I was Christ, or did you imply I thought I was Christ?
.

That was how your comment read. I clearly didn’t understand it. It isn’t that I thought you meant it. There are many times you say things that I don’t know what to do with them.

Anyone who thinks the NASB, NKJV, NET, ESV, LEB and WEB are all wrong in their translation of Matthew 26:24 and the KJV is right has another think coming.

Of all the verses to take issue with!!
No matter which way you say it, it doesn’t change the meaning.

Pray tell. What other thing is coming that I have overlooked by disliking modern grammar? Eternal judgement?
Seriously?