Matthew 6:14-15 and Ephesians 2:8, Jesus or Paul?

[Stegley]

Jesus said, "If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Paul said, "By unmerited favor are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

1.) Being an exact reflection of God and always speaking what The Father instructed Him to say, Jesus spoke the very Words of God without any possibility of error or discrepancy.

Paul was the Chief of Sinners who remained ever in process of attaining the goal of Godliness and maturity.

2.) Jesus had all power in Heaven and on Earth given to Him, and embodied Godliness in human form.

Paul was running a race and achieving things.

3.) Jesus constantly commanded repentance, and cessation of sin.

Paul rarely mentioned sin, and liked the long process of drama laden struggles.

4.) Jesus spoke of merit related forgiveness dependant upon willful obedience to His Commands.

Paul spoke of unmerited righteousness before God as a gift.

5.) Jesus spoke of YHWH to Jews, who knew only The Law, as "Father."

Paul spoke of YHWH to Christians, who were filled with The Holy Spirit, as "God."

6.) Jesus did not speak the "Grace" word.

Paul did all he could to speak about Grace.

7.) Jesus marvelously expounded upon the Godliness of The Law as it had been intended to be in effect.

Paul was most put off by The Law as a victim of its illused history, and wanted nothing to do with it.

8.) Jesus spoke The Gospel in terms of obedience to His axiomatic commands.

Paul spoke The Gospel in terms of his personal issues and preferred syllogisms.

9.) Jesus came from God the Father.

Paul came from Phariseeism.

Should Scripture as it regards God's forgiveness of sins be rightly divided, or should it be merely snipped into workable pieces and squashed together as best as might be accomplished?

Why are Jesus' concise Words so difficult to preach, while Paul's writings are so easy to preach?

Please respond here to the specific content of this thread, rather than overreacting to "how it seems." Thanks.

 

[DHK]

Please respond here to the specific content of this thread, rather than overreacting to "how it seems." Thanks.

It seems as if you are mixed up in heresy, and I am not overreacting.

 

[Stegley]

It seems as if you are mixed up in heresy, and I am not overreacting.

Lol. Just as is so common today, how things "seem" is the limit of common Christian discernment.

Jesus had the same kind of issues with The Pharisees who could only think in terms of how things "seemed." That is why Jesus commanded, "Repent!" Repent means to change one's thinking, where "thinking" has to do with how one deliberates.

Are you not trained regarding how to make itemized observations, to organize, validate, and classify those obversations, all without jumping to intuitive conclusions? Perhaps you are not. The proof of such is thay you have as a first intent turned this issue based topic into a personal retort about myself.

Lol. Pity.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said, "If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Paul said, "By unmerited favor are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

1.) Being an exact reflection of God and always speaking what The Father instructed Him to say, Jesus spoke the very Words of God without any possibility of error or discrepancy.

Paul was the Chief of Sinners who remained ever in process of attaining the goal of Godliness and maturity.

2.) Jesus had all power in Heaven and on Earth given to Him, and embodied Godliness in human form.

Paul was running a race and achieving things.

3.) Jesus constantly commanded repentance, and cessation of sin.

Paul rarely mentioned sin, and liked the long process of drama laden struggles.

4.) Jesus spoke of merit related forgiveness dependant upon willful obedience to His Commands.

Paul spoke of unmerited righteousness before God as a gift.

.

As you may know - in the dark ages name-calling and pulpit pounding, harrumph! and pronouncing this or that "heresy" with no atttention to the "Bible details" in the discussion - was the supposed "solution" to every question that the religious authorities had no answer for.

That dark-ages solution does not go very far in today's age when we all have Bibles and only the low-information Bible students are willing to follow an all-name-calling solution to a given problem.

So now then - choosing not to use the dark ages as my model - I offer this.

=============================

Paul said "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

Paul said in Romans 6 "Shall we SIN because we are under grace and not under law? God forbid! ... do you not know that you are slaves of the one you OBEY... either of sin resulting in death or of righteousness"

Paul said "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge". Rom 2:13-16

Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Paul said to the church "Do not be deceived..." and then listed a bunch of law-breaking actions saying that "SUCH will NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven" 1Cor 6.

Paul reminds us that the NEW COVENANT writes the "Law of God on the heart and mind" Hebrews 8.

You have left this out of your contrast between Paul and Christ and in so doing are missing the point where they agree and so it is "both and" not "either or".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[preacher4truth]

Paul rarely mentioned sin

That's absolutely false. Obviously you don't read much Scripture.

 

[DHK]

Lol. Just as is so common today, how things "seem" is the limit of common Christian discernment.

Jesus had the same kind of issues with The Pharisees who could only think in terms of how things "seemed." That is why Jesus commanded, "Repent!" Repent means to change one's thinking, where "thinking" has to do with how one deliberates.

Are you not trained regarding how to make itemized observations, to organize, validate, and classify those obversations, all without jumping to intuitive conclusions? Perhaps you are not. The proof of such is thay you have as a first intent turned this issue based topic into a personal retort about myself.

Lol. Pity.

You talk about training. Your post is confused, inaccurate, full of theological errors.
You process human tissue. That is your occupation according to your profile.
I have been in full time ministry for over 30 years. Yes, I am trained and qualified to give you an accurate answer without jumping to "intuitive conclusions." You don't appear to be able to make a coherent post that makes much sense and is Biblically accurate. I think there is a reason for that. There are many in our nation that are Biblically illiterate. You already admitted that you don't know what it is "to walk in the light." You need to start at the basics of Christianity instead of trying to admonish those who have been to seminary and have been in the ministry and studied His Word much longer than you have.

 

[Stegley]

As you may know - in the dark ages name-calling and pulpit pounding, harrumph! and pronouncing this or that "heresy" with no atttention to the "Bible details" in the discussion - was the supposed "solution" to every question that the religious authorities had no answer for.

That dark-ages solution does not go very far in today's age when we all have Bibles and only the low-information Bible students are willing to follow an all-name-calling solution to a given problem.

So now then - choosing not to use the dark ages as my model - I offer this.

=============================

Paul said "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

Paul said in Romans 6 "Shall we SIN because we are under grace and not under law? God forbid! ... do you not know that you are slaves of the one you OBEY... either of sin resulting in death or of righteousness"

Paul said "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge". Rom 2:13-16

Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Paul said to the church "Do not be deceived..." and then listed a bunch of law-breaking actions saying that "SUCH will NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven" 1Cor 6.

Paul reminds us that the NEW COVENANT writes the "Law of God on the heart and mind" Hebrews 8.

You have left this out of your contrast between Paul and Christ and in so doing are missing the point where they agree and so it is "both and" not "either or".

in Christ,

Bob

Paul is to be in complete agreement with The Lord, not in partial agreement, and not adding his own ideas.

Jesus never spoke of many of the spiritual "things" which Paul constantly soap boxes. If Paul is in Heaven, I will spend a few years nailing his nonsense to the walls. Did you know in 1 Corinthians 4-5 Paul speaks of himself some 148 times, while speaking of God only 52 times? This is a pattern in all of his writings. Yet he stated, "I knew only Christ crucified."

 

[DHK]

If Paul is in Heaven, I will spend a few years nailing his nonsense to the walls.

What a heretical statement!!
You presume to know more than the inspired writer of the NT, one chosen by God himself.
Examine yourself whether you be in the faith!

 

[Stegley]

You talk about training. Your post is confused, inaccurate, full of theological errors.
You process human tissue. That is your occupation according to your profile.
I have been in full time ministry for over 30 years. Yes, I am trained and qualified to give you an accurate answer without jumping to "intuitive conclusions." You don't appear to be able to make a coherent post that makes much sense and is Biblically accurate. I think there is a reason for that. There are many in our nation that are Biblically illiterate. You already admitted that you don't know what it is "to walk in the light." You need to start at the basics of Christianity instead of trying to admonish those who have been to seminary and have been in the ministry and studied His Word much longer than you have.

As is typical of presumptuous Professional Church Talkers, you have failed to grasp what I have actually written. I have clearly and purposefully spoken only of the issue of walking in the Light "AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT (emphasis mine)."

It is simple to walk in the light as spoken if and demonstrated from the pulpit, but it is a far different matter to walk in the Light as Jesus "is" in the Light. Do you comptehend this distinction? Ask yourself this simple question: "What sort of Light is Jesus in, today?"

Remember, getting huffy and condescending towards me accomplishes nothing but a venting of your own inner issues of limited kindness and pastoral arrogance.

 

[steaver]

Paul is to be in complete agreement with The Lord, not in partial agreement, and not adding his own ideas.

Jesus never spoke of many of the spiritual "things" which Paul constantly soap boxes. If Paul is in Heaven, I will spend a few years nailing his nonsense to the walls. Did you know in 1 Corinthians 4-5 Paul speaks of himself some 148 times, while speaking of God only 52 times? This is a pattern in all of his writings. Yet he stated, "I knew only Christ crucified."

This forum is for debating "Other CHRISTIAN Denominations" Key word "Christian".

Anyone who does not understand Paul is an Apostle for Jesus Christ does not have the Spirit of Christ and is not Christian.

Stegley is not beyond the reach of God's mercy for salvation, but until he repents and is born-again he is of the devil and is only here to cause division, and not here to humbly learn and understand and seek truth. My opinion is either he repents or he is banned, he obviously is not seeking understanding, but is attempting to cause contention and shipwreck of faith.

 

[evangelist-7]

Jesus said, "If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
but if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Paul said, "By unmerited favor are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

Paul's promise above does not disagree with Jesus' statement above it.

Here's the problem with promises such as Paul's above ... it is misunderstood because it is not fully explained.
What is misunderstood? ... "saved through faith" means a continuing faith (and what that entails).

In the context of the entire Bible (not just the NT) ... God's grace must be taken advantage of.
OT ... His chosen people did not, and they were left strewn all over the desert floor (1 Cor 10:5 and Hebrews).
NT ... If BACs do not, they too will be disinherited, cast away, etc. (see the Book of Hebrews).

In both cases we're basically talking about obedience, or the lack thereof.
1 Cor 7:19 "... keeping the commandments of God is what matters."

Please understand that most churches do not preach the truth ... they teach what is popular.
.

 

[steaver]

Please understand that most churches do not preach the truth ... they teach what is popular.
.

You sure have visited quite a few churches......few hundred thousand maybe?

 

[Stegley]

This forum is for debating "Other CHRISTIAN Denominations" Key word "Christian".

Anyone who does not understand Paul is an Apostle for Jesus Christ does not have the Spirit of Christ and is not Christian.

Stegley is not beyond the reach of God's mercy for salvation, but until he repents and is born-again he is of the devil and is only here to cause division, and not here to humbly learn and understand and seek truth. My opinion is either he repents or he is banned, he obviously is not seeking understanding, but is attempting to cause contention and shipwreck of faith.

Yes, and thank you for your sincere response.

However, no writer of Scripture other than Paul himself says a Christian must acknowledge Paul as an "apostle." Luke, who was himself not an Apostle and not qualified to confer apostleship, does call Paul an apostle one time. None of the Authentic Apostles name Paul as one of them, with Peter only referring to Paul as a "dear brother" in a most gracious manner. Paul avoided The Jerusalem Apostles all he could, deciding rather to be trained a part from them, and to operate apart from them. He eschewed their authority and teachings.

 

[Stegley]

Paul's promise above does not disagree with Jesus' statement above it.

Here's the problem with promises such as Paul's above ... it is misunderstood because it is not fully explained.
What is misunderstood? ... "saved through faith" means a continuing faith (and what that entails).

In the context of the entire Bible (not just the NT) ... God's grace must be taken advantage of.
OT ... His chosen people did not, and they were left strewn all over the desert floor (1 Cor 10:5 and Hebrews).
NT ... If BACs do not, they too will be disinherited, cast away, etc. (see the Book of Hebrews).

In both cases we're basically talking about obedience, or the lack thereof.
1 Cor 7:19 "... keeping the commandments of God is what matters."

Please understand that most churches do not preach the truth ... they teach what is popular.
.

What leads you to say Ephesians 2:8 is "Paul's promise?"

Is this perhaps another example of a Professional Church Talker placing a ministerial spin upon the facts of Scripture?

Lol.

 

[DHK]

What leads you to say Ephesians 2:8 is "Paul's promise?"

Is this perhaps another example of a Professional Church Talker placing a ministerial spin upon the facts of Scripture?

Lol.

And this is your opinion of the Apostle Paul? A professional Church Talker who puts a spin upon the facts of Scripture, IOW, a deceiver?
What kind of person posts things like that?
Not a Christian.