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ME nonsense and contradictions exposed

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, Aug 12, 2007.

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  1. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    ME advocates have stated all of the following as true:

    1. Eternal life is not really eternal. It is life for 1,000 years. John 3:16, therefore, is not talking about unending life. It is only about life for 1,000 years, conditional on your behavior.

    2. Although it contradicts #1, ME advocates also say believers have unending life by grace through faith plus nothing.

    3. Although it contradicts #2, ME advocates also state believers must earn eternal life by works. If we do not do good works, we will suffer eternal damnation in the lake of fire/hell.

    4. Believers with unconfessed sin will spend eternity in the lake of fire/hell.

    5. Grace and works are two of many aspects of the single gospel.

    6. Contradicting #5, there are actually two or more gospels, including the gospel of grace, and the gospel of the kingdom. (They ignore Paul's warning that if anyone preach another gospel, which is no gospel at all, let him be accursed.)

    7. There are at least 3 salvations we must obtain by grace and by works.

    8. Justification is entirely by works. There is no answer to the fact that the Bible says God is the one who justifies, and that by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. It is as if these verses do not exist. Only the misrepresented verse in James exists.

    9. Romans 8, in reference to "if God is for us, who can be against us?", asks the question, "Who is he who condemns?" ME folk actually insist this passage says it is Christ who condemns! (I kid you not!)

    10. We have our own righteousness apart from the righteousness of Christ, and our righteousness is what qualifies us for eternal life.

    11. Ignoring all of the passages about how we are not in bondage again to fear, and the perfect love casts out all fear because fear has to do with punishment (which we will not experience) -- ME folk claim that God's "good" reason for threatening to send us to eternal damnation in hell is that fear will make us behave.
     
    #1 npetreley, Aug 12, 2007
  2. Lazarus

    Lazarus New Member

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    Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    The Burkitt Commentary says this for Eph 4:4

    There is one hope of eternal life, by which we are all excited. Our inheritance in heaven is the same; God doth not give one a double portion, or a parti-coloured coat above another; but it is called an inheritance in light, because all alike are partakers of it, and sharers in it: the saints have all one hope, therefore should have all but one heart.
     
    #2 Lazarus, Aug 12, 2007
  3. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Key phrase right there. "The SAINTS" all have hope. Where does Scripture say that "all" saved people are saints? I find no evidence of that in Scripture.

    And since you think the gospel of the kingdom is the same as the gospel of grace through faith can you please tell me why it is that you merely hope you are saved? If all you have is a hope that you are saved then there is a possibility that exists that in the final analysis you won't be saved.

    Also going to be kind of difficult to explain how one is an inheritance and the other is a gift when those two things aren't the same thing, especially when the inheritance is also tied to reward, which is something earned.

    There are just so many questions that can't be answered when one tries to tie these two messages together.
     
    #3 J. Jump, Aug 12, 2007
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Again JJump, the word saints means holy ones.

    What makes them holy?
     
    #4 Amy.G, Aug 12, 2007
  5. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Already addressed this on the other thread. I matters not whether you say saint or whether you say holy one. Not all saved people are holy ones. If you have Scripture to back up your claim that let's please see it. If not you are merely espousing more opinion.

    This is the second time you have responded to "saint" and this is the second time that you present no Scripture to back up your claim. So if you have it let's see it.
     
    #5 J. Jump, Aug 12, 2007
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Add these...

    12. Saving faith is simply mental assent to facts, which requires only a moment of belief. After that, you can stop believing and it won't matter.

    Yes, you read that right. That's the ME way. One wonders if it even falls under the category of "Christianity".

    13. Not all believers are saints. Only the ones who do good works are saints. (Isn't this Catholicism without the step of canonizing the saints?)

    .
     
    #6 npetreley, Aug 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2007
  7. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Just to make it easier to read, here is the current list:

    1. Eternal life is not really eternal. It is life for 1,000 years. John 3:16, therefore, is not talking about unending life. It is only about life for 1,000 years, conditional on your behavior.

    2. Although it contradicts #1, ME advocates also say believers have unending life by grace through faith plus nothing.

    3. Although it contradicts #2, ME advocates also state believers must earn eternal life by works. If we do not do good works, we will suffer eternal damnation in the lake of fire/hell.

    4. Believers with unconfessed sin will spend eternity in the lake of fire/hell.

    5. Grace and works are two of many aspects of the single gospel.

    6. Contradicting #5, there are actually two or more gospels, including the gospel of grace, and the gospel of the kingdom. (They ignore Paul's warning that if anyone preach another gospel, which is no gospel at all, let him be accursed.)

    7. There are at least 3 salvations we must obtain by grace and by works.

    8. Justification is entirely by works. There is no answer to the fact that the Bible says God is the one who justifies, and that by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. It is as if these verses do not exist. Only the misrepresented verse in James exists.

    9. Romans 8, in reference to "if God is for us, who can be against us?", asks the question, "Who is he who condemns?" ME folk actually insist this passage says it is Christ who condemns! (I kid you not!)

    10. We have our own righteousness apart from the righteousness of Christ, and our righteousness is what qualifies us for eternal life.

    11. Ignoring all of the passages about how we are not in bondage again to fear, and the perfect love casts out all fear because fear has to do with punishment (which we will not experience) -- ME folk claim that God's "good" reason for threatening to send us to eternal damnation in hell is that fear will make us behave.

    12. Saving faith is simply a one-time mental assent to facts, nothing more. After that, you can stop believing and it won't matter.

    13. Not all believers are saints. Only the ones who do good works are saints.
     
    #7 npetreley, Aug 12, 2007
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    JJump:
    You have to be holy or you're not saved. All saved people are holy. Not because of anything they have done or any amount of righteousness on their part, but they are holy because they have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.

    To be holy means to be set apart for God.

    Only the saved are set apart for God.
     
    #8 Amy.G, Aug 12, 2007
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Amen all the way! That's the essence of Scripture on the matter.
     
    #9 TCGreek, Aug 12, 2007
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The only opinion here, JJ, is yours.
    Consult a dictionary, preferably a Greek Lexicon.
    The Saved = the saints.
    The Saints = the holy ones.
    The Holy Ones = those set apart
    Those set apart = sanctified

    Hallelujah! I'm saved, a saint of God, holy and set apart, sanctified by the blood of Jesus for His service.
     
    #10 DHK, Aug 13, 2007
  11. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Brother, if your hope is that you're saved, then you need to look at Scriptures. You can have that assurance, and not have to hope for it!
     
    #11 Hope of Glory, Aug 13, 2007
  12. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    HoG -- then your monicker ought to be "Faith of Glory," FoG!! :laugh: But apparently you don't have it either. You COULD be going to hell for 1000 years, right? So how are you going to tell Lazarus he can have assurance that you don't even have?

    What Lazarus is saying is the we are not completely saved yet -- we're not glorified. We have that "blessed hope" (AKA "belief") that when Jesus appears, we will be like Him. However, we KNOW that our souls are saved and our spirits are being saved/revived daily by the Holy Spirit.

    skypair
     
    #12 skypair, Aug 13, 2007
  13. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    Well---since the Lord Jesus Christ IS the holiness of God----it is by grace that HIS holiness is imputed to me----so that when The Father looks at me----He sees the holiness of the Lord Jesus that has been imputed(given) to me

    What makes them holy??? Only one holiness that God will receive---the holiness of the Lord Jesus is what makes US holy before God!!!

    'tis the only way!!!!
     
    #13 blackbird, Aug 13, 2007
  14. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Saints are not Saints.

    Eternal is not eternal

    Believers will die and go to hell

    Jesus did not come and preach the cross

    This is just a few heresies being espoused here. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding of the hope Paul was speaking of. And all this is because of an attemp to to apply 21 st century mind set to scripture.

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 1679[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]ejlpivzw[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (1680)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Elpizo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2:517,229[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]el-pid'-zo [​IMG] [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
    1. to hope
      1. in a religious sense, to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence
    2. hopefully to trust in
    [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] King James Word Usage - Total: 32[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]trust 18, hope 10, hope for 2, things hoped for 1, vr hope 1[/FONT]
     
    #14 2 Timothy2:1-4, Aug 13, 2007
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    You and I and most everyone else on this board know that, but I have yet to hear what JJump and others say.

    They have all avoided the question.

    These are the 2 questions they have avoided. Not even an attempt at answering them.

    By whose righteousness will you enter the kingdom when you stand at the JSOC?

    How do we become holy?

    Stll waiting........
     
    #15 Amy.G, Aug 13, 2007
  16. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Don't forget this one (I added it to yours):

    1. By whose righteousness will you enter the kingdom when you stand at the JSOC?

    2. How do we become holy?

    3. Assuming ME is correct, why do you think YOU won't be among those who are excluded?
     
    #16 npetreley, Aug 13, 2007
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Here's another one.

    4. How can we be faithful enough, obedient enough and perfect enough to avoid the millennial punishment?

    Wait, that's just repeating #1!
     
    #17 Amy.G, Aug 13, 2007
  18. KSeeker

    KSeeker New Member

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    1. npetreley, When you are trying to EXPOSE the nonsense and contradictions of the ME, I would suggest that you be sure of what the ME believe.

    2. We are not saying that eternal life does not exist...we are saying that there is more to the story than just being saved and going to heaven for all eternity...I don't know how one can argue that there will be a pd of 1000 yrs where Christ will reign over this earth. (Rev 20)

    3. I do not believe that we have our own righteousness apart from Christ. I believe that when we die to ourselves daily and allow the fullness of Christ to live through us, His righteousness will drive our very behavior. Christ will accomplish the good works set forth for us, through us.
    1 Cor. 3- the wood hay and stubble = works done in the flesh
    - gold silver and precious stones= works done in the spirit, or works done by Christ through us.

    4. Justification (using your terms) IS NOT BY WORKS LEST ANYMAN SHOULD BOAST>>>no one has said this...Sanctification is by works, but these works are likened to those mentioned in #3...in the spirit.
     
    #18 KSeeker, Aug 13, 2007
  19. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Amy, I expect lies from npetrely.

    I'm disappointed that you resort it.

    I expected better.
     
    #19 Hope of Glory, Aug 13, 2007
  20. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    KSeeker they know these things as we have explained it to them I can't count how many times. The problem is there is no argument against this and they don't want to admit that Scripture actually says what we have been saying so they have to lie and manipulate what we say to keep the agruments going and to scare people away from looking at this material for themselves.

    It's the same type of action the "leaders" in Israel took because they couldn't defeat the message either.
     
    #20 J. Jump, Aug 13, 2007
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