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Megachurch leaves PCUSA over homosexuals

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by Revmitchell, Sep 4, 2006.

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  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Members of Kirk of the Hills Presbyterian rose to their feet and cheered, whistled and clapped for nearly a minute Wednesday evening when it was announced that they had overwhelmingly endorsed their church leaders' decision to leave the Presbyterian Church (USA).
    In a crowded, members-only, congregational meeting held in the church sanctuary at 4102 E. 61st St., the congregation voted to approve three separate measures: ratifying and confirming the decision to disaffiliate from the PC (USA); approving the congregation's affiliation with the more conservative Evangelical Presbyterian Church; and affirming the ordination of Kirk pastors Tom Gray and Wayne Hardy, who have resigned as PC (USA) ministers.

    The first two measures received a 96 percent yes vote, with 967 members voting to leave the the Presbyterian Church (USA) and 36 voting to remain affiliated with the denomination.



    http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=060831_Ne_A1_Kirko55512
     
    #1 Revmitchell, Sep 4, 2006
  2. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    "The next day, the Kirk filed a lawsuit asking the Tulsa County District Court to rule that the church property belongs to the congregation and not to the Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery of the Presbyterian Church."

    Interesting that after saying the want to adhere to the authority of scripture they violate one of the principles of scripture by filing a lawsuite. I am thankful they are taking a stand on the hmosexual as well as authority issues but they need to follow through with their intent to make the scriptures their final authority.

    Thjplgvp
     
    #2 thjplgvp, Sep 4, 2006
  3. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    And exactly what principle did they violate?

    I do think that this is a good example of why local churches should be completely autonomous, but I believe that the principle you are thinking of applies to an individual filing suit against an individual brother.
     
    #3 Hope of Glory, Sep 4, 2006
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Episcopal Church Leaves Va. Diocese


    A small Loudoun County church has become the first to formally sever ties with the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia over the national church's elevation of an openly gay bishop in 2003.
    Members of the South Riding Church, which has 90 adult members and worships at an elementary school, voted to make the break last week, said the Rev. Phil Ashey, the church's pastor. Of those who opposed the move in secret balloting, only two decided to leave the congregation, he said.

    Ashey, the son of an Episcopal priest and the grandson of a major lay leader in Massachusetts, said the congregation has joined the Anglican Church of Uganda, another branch of the worldwide 77 million-member Anglican Communion and one of several international groups that have been critical of the American church. ...


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/19/AR2005111901010.html?nav=rss_metro
     
    #4 Revmitchell, Sep 4, 2006
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Texas Episcopalians consider split from the denomination


    DALLAS - Bishop James Stanton is among the leaders of seven Episcopal dioceses who have rejected the authority of the denomination's incoming national leader, Nevada Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, as the debate over the Bible and gay relationships tears at the church.
    The move, prompted partly by Jefferts Schori's support for gay relationships, falls just short of a complete break.

    But in October, Dallas-area Epis-copalians will meet to more fully consider their future in the 2.3 million-member denomination. ...

    http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/living/religion/15420463.htm?source=rss&channel=kansas_religion
     
    #5 Revmitchell, Sep 4, 2006
  6. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    Is a local church not subject to the rules of conduct as a believer? Are we to suppose the violation scriptural principles only extends brother to brother and not church to church?

    I am not bothered with the decision at all I just found it oddly amusing.

    Thjplgvp
     
    #6 thjplgvp, Sep 4, 2006
  7. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    A brother is an individual who is living in obedience to God.

    This is an organization, and the ruling body is not living in obedience to God.

    As an organization, the legal authority for such decisions lies in the government, since it is dealing with real property.
     
    #7 Hope of Glory, Sep 4, 2006
  8. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    The lawsuit is because the church property is controlled by court law . . . and not the Bible.

     
    #8 El_Guero, Sep 4, 2006
  9. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    What took so long?

     
    #9 El_Guero, Sep 4, 2006
  10. Jack Matthews

    Jack Matthews New Member

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    So it is OK for believers to settle issues by filing lawsuits as long as the person they are suing isn't living in obedience to God?

    Since it is possible for individual who are Christians, or organizations which are Christian, to be disobedient to God, but still keep their salvation, who makes the decision whether a lawsuit is either in violation of scripture or not?
     
    #10 Jack Matthews, Sep 4, 2006
  11. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    "Leaving the PC(USA) over homosexuals???"

    What homosexuals? The Book of Order still does not permit ordination of homosexuals to church office.

    And as to suing over church property, there are mechanisms in the Book of Order to deal with this. Obviously, having immediately filed a civil suit, these individuals
    did not avail themselves of it, choosing instead to ignore Biblical precedents for dealing with conflict.

    But they'll get a free ride from Fundamentalists because they say the right things abou a particular pet sin.
     
    #11 tragic_pizza, Sep 5, 2006
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    http://www.cbmw.org/news/pcusa1.php
     
    #12 Revmitchell, Sep 5, 2006
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    http://www.cwfa.org/articles/542/CFI/cfreport/index.htm
     
    #13 Revmitchell, Sep 5, 2006
  14. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Without noticing the fact that those stories are from 2001, and last I checked we are in 2006, and have had 4 GA meetings since that date, you've stumbled upon one of the things that makes being a Presbyterian so great:

    Our polity. The GA may not change the Constitution without the approval of a majority of Presbyteries.
     
    #14 tragic_pizza, Sep 7, 2006
  15. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    And as a former member of a PCUSA and wife to a former elder in the PCUSA who preached numerous times in the PC, this whole homosexual thing has been going on for a long time - as well as other very sinful things being either condoned or not condemnded - just as bad.

    The issue of the church suing for the property - the local congregation pays the mortgage on the church yet the PCUSA actually owns the building. There was talk of our own church leaving the PCUSA but we would lose the church building that is in the heart of a very large village that has a large homosexual population - as well as a yearly 'pride' parade. We felt that we neede to keep the location that we had and that we'd fight the sin in the organization with every fiber of our beings. It was so tough.

    We eventually left the church and ended up in a Baptist church - where my husband is now a pastor. It was a right move for us. I am saddened by what I hear of our old church - a very small struggling light that's fighting a flood. When they were looking for a pastor, they came up with a statement of beliefs and they couldn't find a pastor who would sign it (it is all Biblical and one that anyone here would not find fault with) - except one pastor. It was a woman. She came in, but more than 1/2 of the congregation left and she resigned. They are now pastorless again (they've been through 5 pastors in the last 10 years).

    I say 'bravo' to that church. I pray that they will be able to keep their facilities and move on in teaching, worship and growing in the Lord.
     
    #15 annsni, Sep 16, 2006
  16. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    I still gotta ask:

     
    #16 El_Guero, Sep 16, 2006
  17. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    The DFW news reported that the Presbyterian Church in DFW won their lawsuit . . . but they gotta pay 1.2 million.
     
    #17 El_Guero, Sep 16, 2006
  18. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yeah - nothing like double paying. :rolleyes: They get to pay the mortgage all these years and now have to buy the building again. GREAT deal.
     
    #18 annsni, Sep 16, 2006
  19. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Yeah, you'd think the PC(USA) would lay out the rules and all so everyone would know going in what was expected.

    (Hint: The above is sarcasm; there's this thingie called the "Book of Order," and everyone gets to read it)
     
    #19 tragic_pizza, Sep 17, 2006
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Oh yeah, but the PCUSA also USED to uphold the Word of God and that's since changed. Usually when you change a contract, that makes it null and void - we belonged to a PC because they were a great church - and that's since changed. Too bad they have you over a barrel so it makes it very tough to leave - but God has been in the many churches leaving and has blessed them greatly for standing on HIS Word, not the Book of Order.
     
    #20 annsni, Sep 17, 2006
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