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Modern Day Prophets

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Ben W, Dec 21, 2002.

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  1. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    This is a thread on the role of the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy in the Modern Church, How it is used and discerning a prophet. We have had various false prophets which have got much time in the media. Watchtower society, various other self made prophets. However it would appear that there are some Modern Prophets who have prophesied accuratley. Pastor David Wilkerson, founder of Teen Challenge is one. In 1987 he prophesied that the stock market would crash, which happened in October of that year. David Wilkerson also prophesied the gulf war four years prior to it happenening. David Wilkerson's church has also pulled out of the AOG after he felt it best to leave.

    Steve Lightle wrote a book Exodus II He has also prophesied accuratley. Steve stood before the Kremlin in Red Square and prophesied that because the Soviet Union was persecuting the church, not allowing the Gospel to be preached and not allowing the Jews to return to Israel, in fufilment of the prophecies of Jeramiah that they would return from the land of the north, God would do to the Soviet Empire what He did to Egypt. Steve made a prophetic announcment to let the gospel be preached and to let the Jews go.

    Lightles first prediction was that there would be a blight on the Soviets land. Almost immediantly Chernobyl happened. Second prophecy was that their war machine would collapse. Not long after they withdrew from Afghanistan and the Warsaw pact fell apart. Thirdly he said that God would destroy the spirit of Lenin Worship dozens of factories supplied statues of him and his body was embalmed and displayed. Today every one of those factories has shut down, statues of lenin in the streets have been smashed down or had their heads sliced off.

    Finally he prophesied that God would break up the Soviet Union. This was in 1985 when all the talk was of Star Wars, a new arms race and the Cold War was at its peak. Today the Hammer and Sickle lie broken on the ground.

    Steve and David are both students of the Word. They incorporate sound biblical teaching into all that they do. I feel that we do not value prophecy enough on the basis of false prophets that have decieved many. Any one got any thoghts on modern prophecies?
     
    #1 Ben W, Dec 21, 2002
  2. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Only that most prophets don't speak much about their prophecies that fail.
    I don't know anything about the men you mention but there are many market analysts who accurately predict market falls and rises.
    I'm sure they are not the only ones who predicted war in the Mideast or the decline of the Russian military.
    If they have ever made one false prophecy, they are false prophets.
    One the other hand, a couple of lucky guesses don't make one a prophet either.
    The Bible only mentions that God will send two prophets during the tribulation.
    Well, I guess it also mentions that "many will prophecy in my name."

    MR
     
    #2 mountainrun, Dec 21, 2002
  3. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    I must say that I am suspect of anyone who claims to be a prophet to-day. I have seen too much among the dispensationalist who proclaimed all the great events that would take place from Old Testament prophecies - the twist and tangle of scripture, which only adds fuel to the world which already deems the Bible to be loaded with nonsense.

    I would much rather spend my time with the sure things of scripture, and preach that gospel.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #3 Jim1999, Dec 21, 2002
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    What are the Biblical tests of a real prophet?

    Every single thing they say comes to pass.

    100% accuracy, without dispute and without equivocation (like the generic mean-nothing words of a Nostradamus) or stone to death.

    Wonder if these modern charlatans would agree to a test? Exact info, details undiscernable by normal insight OR if they get one wrong, we kill them?

    Hmmmmm :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
    #4 Dr. Bob, Dec 21, 2002
  5. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    This is the point that I am driving at, we have seen so much abuse of the prophetic spiritual gift, that we dont want to have anything to do with it. Yet we are generally keen to operate the Spiritual Gift of healing for a sick brother or sister. Maybe because of abuse, we need to consider more carefully this gift, which if given the opportunity to use a number of people in the church are designated the role of prophet. It seems that Evangalists, Teachers and Pastors are retained, but Apostles and Prophets are not welcome in a number of churches. Which I feel is not consistant with the New Testament.
     
    #5 Ben W, Dec 21, 2002
  6. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Ben, there ARE no apostles today. An apostle is one who has seen the risen Christ and they have all been dead for nearly two thousand years.
    The Bible clearly says that miracles are the sign of an apostle and no one today is performing miracles.
    The Bible also tells us that prophecies will cease.

    Question: Are you a Mormon?

    MR
     
    #6 mountainrun, Dec 21, 2002
  7. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Here is a another claim made by Steve Lightle concerning an incident supposedly taking place in 1990...

    ===============
    http://www.etpv.org/1996-97/bell.html

    We had the opportunity to leave Iraq on the 6th of June, but as we were praying, the Holy Spirit spoke to me: "Don't leave today! Leave on the 8th!"

    When you have been in Iraq for some ten days, it would really be nice to get out of there. The temperature was 130 plus with 90% humidity. The food was not edible. But in obedience to the voice of the Holy Spirit, on the 8th of June we flew from Baghdad to Istanbul. We were met there by a couple. Just casually the man mentioned the fact that only two airplanes left Baghdad for Istanbul on the 6th of June and both of them crashed. Obey the slightest prompting of the Holy Spirit!
    ==================

    This claim of two planes crashing out of Baghdad on the same day never happened, on June 6, 1990 or any other day.
    Look it up.

    Lightle is not only a false prophet but a bad liar as well. Good liars don't give details.

    I would strongly caution anyone against following after these so called prophets.

    MR
     
    #7 mountainrun, Dec 21, 2002
  8. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    A search on David Wilkerson reveals that there are several sites documenting his false prophecies, you know, the ones we never hear about.
    Go carefully and with wisdom, Ben.

    These Pentecostal "prophets" have about as reliable credentials as do their "healers."
    Too many failures.
    And even one disqualifies them.

    MR
     
    #8 mountainrun, Dec 21, 2002
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Amen. [​IMG]
     
    #9 KenH, Dec 21, 2002
  10. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Mountainrun, I am not sure how you percieve me to be a Mormon, I hope you are genuinley asking this, otherwise it could be easily taken another way. But no I am not a Mormon, I grew up in the Salvation Army, spent several years in the Pentecostal Church, and am a current member of the Seventh Day Baptist Church.

    The Apostle Paul is not recorded as having seen Jesus Christ while his ministry was happening. He certainley did see him in a vision. If this qualifies Him as an Apostle, then any one who claims to have seen Jesus Christ in a vision is qualified. If we look at Ephesians 4:11-13 it says "And He Himself gave some to be Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangalists, some Pastors and Teachers. for the equipping of the Saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man to the measure of the staure of the fulness of Christ.

    If the Apostles and Prophets are no longer to be in existance, then the offices of Pastor, Evangalist and Teacher are no more also? We know that this is not the case.

    Paul mentions the Unity of the Faith. This has definatley not occured yet. The book of Jude focuses on a whole onto the disunity abounding in the church (vs19). We are only to well aware of how the church went under the Catholic papal system. We will see unity in the Church, when that which is perfect has come (1Cor 13:10) up until that time, The offices given to the members of the church are in existance.
     
    #10 Ben W, Dec 22, 2002
  11. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Regarding Apostles this is correct information. Likewise, Paul most certainly saw and spoke with the risen Christ during his encounter on the road to Damascus. Thus, Paul is qualified to be an Apostle. There are no Apostles on earth today. Likewise, God spoke to Prophets in an audible voice. For example see how many times Isaiah and the other O.T. Prophets refer to hearing the voice of the Lord. Because they heard the voice of the Lord they were able to say to the people, "Thus says the Lord..." I do not believe that God speaks in an audible voice to people today because we have His complete perfect revealed Word (the Bible). Finally, simply because we no longer have Apostles and Prophets (because we have the complete Bible) does not mean that the Pastors, Teachers, and Evangelists must also be gone. These are still needed to spread the Gospel.

    [ December 22, 2002, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
    #11 Bible-boy, Dec 22, 2002
  12. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Apostles can also be referred to as church planters. In regard to the countries that have not yet been reached by the Gospel should not the Apostles, be continuing their work and spreading the Gospel and planting churches. The word missionary is not used in the bible.

    Consider the greek meaning of the term Apostle, Strongs no 652 apostolos, ap-os'tol-os, - A Delegate, Specifically an ambassador of the Gospel. A commisioner of Christ, he that is sent. If we want to get rid of Apostles, doesnt this include missionarys, scince they are clearly Apostles?

    The bible does not say that Apostles will be finished before Jesus returns.

    Various miracles performed in the name of our Lord and Saviour are happening today. I had a perforated ear drum, and the elders in the church prayed for me and I was healed. Yes I have medical records to back it up. My friend Tracy was prayed for and healed of a lung disease. People are being physically healed all over the place. Jesus said that satan cannot cast out satan. If somebody is prayed for in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and they are healed, then it is a genuine miracle.
     
    #12 Ben W, Dec 22, 2002
  13. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    I have every faith that God heals, but I have little or no faith in so-called faith healers. I have about the same faith in so-called prophets to-day.

    Pastors and deacons; we despatch missionaries to the field and we send pastors out to plant churches. These are the only Baptist offices to my knowledge. I will yield to those who believe in elders and allow for that interpretation.

    Ben, if I may, I think your admitted background deserves a little more research in Baptist distinctives......a Salvation Army, Pentecostal and 7th Day Baptist are hardly the places to learn Baptist distinctives.

    Please, I am not being unkind or critical of your spiritual stand. Not everything on the net is reliable. Seek good historical Baptist books on the subject.

    Cheers, and God bless,

    Jim

    [ December 22, 2002, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]
     
    #13 Jim1999, Dec 22, 2002
  14. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Hello Ben,

    It seems that you are cross-associating the biblical term "Apostle" and the modern term "Church-Planter." While the two terms may share some common characteristics, especially when considering the work of the Apostle Paul, they are not equal terms and can not be used interchangeably. Again, the one thing that distinguishes an Apostle form a modern Church-Planter or Missionary is that a biblical Apostle is one who saw the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. Please don’t confuse the missionary work of Paul with his position as an Apostle. The Apostles were the leaders of the early church and they were verbally instructed by the resurrected Lord Jesus to carry the Gospel to the ends of the earth. Most were Apostles because of their close personal, physical, experience with the resurrected Lord Jesus. They lived with Jesus, ate meals with Him, talked with Him, and they saw and touched Him. However, Paul also qualifies as an Apostle due to his experience with the resurrected Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus. He saw Christ, even if only briefly, and he spoke with Christ. That is what makes him an Apostle.

    As I said above some of the Apostles served the Lord as Missionaries. However, all Missionaries throughout history are/were not Apostles. The two terms are not interchangeable.

    You are correct. However, the Bible also does not say that men will fly in airplanes, or walk on the moon, or scuba dive. You are attempting to argue from silence and that is a type of fallacy of relevance. In other words it makes for a very weak basis for a logical argument. The point is that historically conservative evangelical scholarship maintains that an Apostle is one who saw the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.

    No one here is disputing the fact that the Lord can and does work healing miracles. However, we are saying that there are people out there who erroneously apply the term Apostle to themselves. Likewise, there are others who claim to be Prophets who can and have been demonstrated to be false Prophets.

    Like Jim I am not trying to be mean or hurtful. However, you seem to be carrying a lot of doctrine, which is tied to your Pentecostal etc. background, that does not line up with traditional Baptist distinctives.

    [ December 23, 2002, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
    #14 Bible-boy, Dec 23, 2002
  15. g'day mate

    g'day mate New Member

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    My comment is simple,the future is not yours to behold.
    John
     
    #15 g'day mate, Dec 23, 2002
  16. Pete

    Pete New Member

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    After a hour and a bit of searching the web for a prophet of today who meets the Biblical criteria my score so far is: 0

    Disappointing at first, but I do expect that to go up by 700% or so the next time I search....

    Pete
     
    #16 Pete, Dec 23, 2002
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    As to prophecies: If they agree with the Bible they're needless. If they don't, they're false.
     
    #17 Aaron, Dec 23, 2002
  18. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Ben, the reason I ask if you are a Mormon is that they believe in prophets and apostles and you are using some of the same points they do.
    Including your erronious argument about the disunity of the Christian church..

    Paul saw Jesus on the road to Damascus and was taken up to Heaven where he saw Him again.
    If anyone who claims to have seen Jesus is an apostle then such claimant will be able to perform miracles won't they?
    After all, the Bible says thatis the sign of an apostle.

    You said..
    ===========
    If the Apostles and Prophets are no longer to be in existance, then the offices of Pastor, Evangalist and Teacher are no more also? We know that this is not the case.
    ===========

    Apostles and Prophets are not a continuing office.
    They were specific people.

    You will be hardpressed to prove anyone in this age is a prophet or apostle.

    The only prophets mentioned for our age are the two endtime prophets who will be able to call down fire from Heaven.

    The phonies, however abound.

    However, if you insist of following after prophets, I suggest you check each one out.
    They will beat their drum loudly about their successes, but they seem to be rather absent minded about their failures.

    MR
     
    #18 mountainrun, Dec 23, 2002
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