1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Modern Versions and the Lord's Prayer

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Apr 23, 2005.

Top Posters
  1. icthus

    icthus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    The King James Versions which has been much criticised for using Greek manuscripts that are of a late date, and inferior to those by the "modern versions", again, when it comes to textual soundness, and reliaibility, is, by the Providence of God, far superior a version.

    [attack on the Word of God snipped]

    The passage in question here is the "Lord's Prayer" as found in Matthew chapter 6. The KJV reads:

    "And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen"

    The leading MV, the NIV has it:

    "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one"

    With a footnote: "Or from evil; some late manuscripts one, / for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen." (from Gospelcom.net)

    As for these "late manuscripts", what can be said? The earliest extant Greek Mss that have the reading of the KJV, dates from the fifth/sixth century. It is true that the Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, both of the fourth century, omit the words. What does this prove? Nothing. A work that dates from the close of the first century, and written in Greek, called the Didache (manual of discipline), has this in it:

    "And do not pray as the hypocrites, but as the Lord commanded in his Gospel, pray thus: "Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, as in Heaven so also upon earth; give us to-day our daily bread, and forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors, and lead us not into trial, but deliver us from the Evil One, for thine is the power and the glory for ever ." 3 Pray thus three times a day" (chapter 8, 2)

    Note, it says that these words were found in the "Gospel". Where else by Matthew's are these words found?

    They are also found in almost all of the ancient versions of the New Testament, dating from the second century. The Old Latin, (2nd); the Old Syriac (2nd); the Coptic (4th); Gothic (4th); Armenian (5th); Ethiopic (5th); Georgian (5th). The Apostolic Constitutions (4th). The Latin father, Ambrose (339-397); and Greek father, Chrysostom (347-407), knew of the reading.

    Where did these versions, fathers and early documents get the words from. That they are an "early gloss", is complete nonsense, since the the Didache which was written only about 35 years after Matthew wrote his Gospel, has the earliest full reference to the actual words.

    This is further evidence where the enemy of the Truth as succeeded to destroy a verse with powerful testimony to the Greatness of our God.

    [ April 23, 2005, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
     
    #1 icthus, Apr 23, 2005
  2. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    15
    The Didache from ca. 100 is truly an amazing witness for the Byzantine reading here, which apparently is by far more ancient than the omission of the doxology of the Lord's Prayer.

    One question you didn't bring up or answer, Icthus, is why this doxology might have been omitted by anyone?

    Yours, Bluefalcon
     
    #2 Bluefalcon, Apr 23, 2005
  3. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    15
    Does anyone think it's possible that Matthew didn't write it, but that someone editing the NT canon, like John, added this doxology to the greatness of God, including the "Amen"s at the end of many of the NT books that do not appear in the consensus of Alexandrian MSS? Many of these "canonical features" tend to make me want to postulate a theory to this effect.

    Yours, Bluefalcon
     
    #3 Bluefalcon, Apr 23, 2005
  4. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,024
    Likes Received:
    1
    Actully, Matthew 6:13 as quoted above is a direct quote from the NKJV, one of the "modern versions" which is so quickly maligned by many of the KJVO persuasion. The KJV actually reads: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." The KJV does not mention "the evil one" at all, but mentions only "evil." It is nice to see one of the "modern versions" being quoted as Scripture, even if it is in a post which seeks to malign the "modern versions."
     
    #4 Keith M, Apr 23, 2005
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,401
    Likes Received:
    555
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I can see why pious scribes of later years, knowing the way the church fathers manipulated the Words of Jesus (adding to it) would likewise add in that final phrase.

    The witness of the early writings show NOT what the Scripture said, but how they interpreted it. Added and expanded. I've read the ante-nicene fathers and their works are replete with such additions.

    NOTE TO ICHTHUS - you seem to think your are immune to the policy of attacking God's Word. You will not be warned again. I am tired of going through post to snips snide, vile attacks on God's Word. Remember, words like "corrupt" or "heresy" or such are not accepted here.

    This is the second warning in April. Play by the rules or leave.
     
    #5 Dr. Bob, Apr 23, 2005
  6. icthus

    icthus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actully, Matthew 6:13 as quoted above is a direct quote from the NKJV, one of the "modern versions" which is so quickly maligned by many of the KJVO persuasion. The KJV actually reads: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." The KJV does not mention "the evil one" at all, but mentions only "evil." It is nice to see one of the "modern versions" being quoted as Scripture, even if it is in a post which seeks to malign the "modern versions." </font>[/QUOTE]Keith. I actually got it from here:

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html
     
    #6 icthus, Apr 23, 2005
  7. icthus

    icthus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you don't like the truth, then thats your problem. You want to remove me from this board, please feel free to, its not the end of my world. If you don't understand the English language, I suggest you visit us here in England. For your information, "herery" means, "holding of an unorthodox opinion". This does NOT mean that the version in question is from the devil. I will continue to use this for most of the modern versions, which indeed do contain "heresy". But, don't try to make it out that I would apply this term to the original autographs. I notice that your study of the Church fathers did not tell you why this full reading of the Lord's Prayer, was in a document as early as the close of the first century?

    As an administrator you have the power to remove me from here for speaking the truth. Do as you please. But you cannot muzzle the Truth on the Word of God.
     
    #7 icthus, Apr 23, 2005
  8. icthus

    icthus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you are content from arguing from conjecture, then why accept any of the New Testament as a reliable documant? The evidence is there as early as the first century, only a generation after the Gospel of Matthew was written. You cannot without a shread of proof, sepculate that it was added this early.
     
    #8 icthus, Apr 23, 2005
  9. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    1
    Icthus said:

    If you don't like the truth, then thats your problem.

    ROFL! Nice knowing you.
     
    #9 Ransom, Apr 23, 2005
  10. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,024
    Likes Received:
    1
    Actully, Matthew 6:13 as quoted above is a direct quote from the NKJV, one of the "modern versions" which is so quickly maligned by many of the KJVO persuasion. The KJV actually reads: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." The KJV does not mention "the evil one" at all, but mentions only "evil." It is nice to see one of the "modern versions" being quoted as Scripture, even if it is in a post which seeks to malign the "modern versions." </font>[/QUOTE]Keith. I actually got it from here:

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html     </font>[/QUOTE]icthus, I think you are confusing yourself. The site you cited above, puts the Matthew verse this way: "and lead us not into trial, but deliver us from the Evil One, for thine is the power and the glory for ever." Anyone who takes the time to look up the url you posted can see that you are getting your sources confused. The passage as you quoted it certainly did not come from the web site page you referenced, nor did it dome from the King James Version of the Bible. Want to try again? Maybe you can clear your thinking with a third attempt to get it right. As I stated before, "Actully, Matthew 6:13 as quoted above is a direct quote from the NKJV, one of the 'modern versions' which is so quickly maligned by many of the KJVO persuasion." Please be sure of your sources in the future, to protect yourself from further embarrassment. By not being sure of your sources, you seriously damage your own credibility...
     
    #10 Keith M, Apr 23, 2005
  11. icthus

    icthus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actully, Matthew 6:13 as quoted above is a direct quote from the NKJV, one of the "modern versions" which is so quickly maligned by many of the KJVO persuasion. The KJV actually reads: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." The KJV does not mention "the evil one" at all, but mentions only "evil." It is nice to see one of the "modern versions" being quoted as Scripture, even if it is in a post which seeks to malign the "modern versions." </font>[/QUOTE]Keith. I actually got it from here:

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html     </font>[/QUOTE]icthus, I think you are confusing yourself. The site you cited above, puts the Matthew verse this way: "and lead us not into trial, but deliver us from the Evil One, for thine is the power and the glory for ever." Anyone who takes the time to look up the url you posted can see that you are getting your sources confused. The passage as you quoted it certainly did not come from the web site page you referenced, nor did it dome from the King James Version of the Bible. Want to try again? Maybe you can clear your thinking with a third attempt to get it right. As I stated before, "Actully, Matthew 6:13 as quoted above is a direct quote from the NKJV, one of the 'modern versions' which is so quickly maligned by many of the KJVO persuasion." Please be sure of your sources in the future, to protect yourself from further embarrassment. By not being sure of your sources, you seriously damage your own credibility...     </font>[/QUOTE]Keith, what are you talking about? The link I posted takes you to an English translation of the Didach. If you were to go to chapter 8, you will see that it contains the Lord's Prayer as found in Matthews Gospel (KJV).
     
    #11 icthus, Apr 23, 2005
  12. icthus

    icthus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    BTW, I DO NOT class the NKJV with the other MV's, as I use it myself. The quote I used from Matthew is from the NKJV, but the link takes you to the reading in the Didach.
     
    #12 icthus, Apr 23, 2005
  13. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    15
    If you are content from arguing from conjecture, then why accept any of the New Testament as a reliable documant? The evidence is there as early as the first century, only a generation after the Gospel of Matthew was written. You cannot without a shread of proof, sepculate that it was added this early. </font>[/QUOTE]Why do any MSS at all omit this wonderful doxology, if it is original, that is the question? That is why it is useful to have theories to explain what actually exists, most MSS have it, some of them don't.

    If Matthew wrote it early, and copies were made, and then an apostle edited it and forged the canon later, I can see why some copies from the "first" singular edition managed to persist even after the "authoritative" edition containing a combination of NT books with apostolic sanction arrived on the scene. Either some scribes were reluctant to integrate some of the readings into the text, or didn't even know about the readings. I submit that the doxology of the Lord's Prayer could have been one such reading. There are many others, like I mentioned earlier, combining "canonical features" like the Amens at the end of all the Gospels that many of the same MSS do not incorporate.

    Yours, Bluefalcon
     
    #13 Bluefalcon, Apr 23, 2005
  14. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,024
    Likes Received:
    1
    Actully, Matthew 6:13 as quoted above is a direct quote from the NKJV, one of the "modern versions" which is so quickly maligned by many of the KJVO persuasion. The KJV actually reads: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." The KJV does not mention "the evil one" at all, but mentions only "evil." It is nice to see one of the "modern versions" being quoted as Scripture, even if it is in a post which seeks to malign the "modern versions." </font>[/QUOTE]Keith. I actually got it from here:

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html     </font>[/QUOTE]icthus, I think you are confusing yourself. The site you cited above, puts the Matthew verse this way: "and lead us not into trial, but deliver us from the Evil One, for thine is the power and the glory for ever." Anyone who takes the time to look up the url you posted can see that you are getting your sources confused. The passage as you quoted it certainly did not come from the web site page you referenced, nor did it dome from the King James Version of the Bible. Want to try again? Maybe you can clear your thinking with a third attempt to get it right. As I stated before, "Actully, Matthew 6:13 as quoted above is a direct quote from the NKJV, one of the 'modern versions' which is so quickly maligned by many of the KJVO persuasion." Please be sure of your sources in the future, to protect yourself from further embarrassment. By not being sure of your sources, you seriously damage your own credibility...     </font>[/QUOTE]Keith, what are you talking about? The link I posted takes you to an English translation of the Didach. If you were to go to chapter 8, you will see that it contains the Lord's Prayer as found in Matthews Gospel (KJV).     </font>[/QUOTE]Icthus, you need to read all this again. When I first quoted you, it was from a couple paragraphs above where you quoted the Didache (which, BTW, does NOT quote the Lord's Prayer as it appears in the KJV). In the paragraphs I quoted, you ascribed the NKJV quote to the KJV. So how is it that you do not place the NKJV on an equal footing with other Modern Versions? After all, the NKJV is different than the KJV, and in many places the NKJV follows the same textual basis as some of the Modern Versions you so readily condemn. Remember the KJVO motto: "What is different is not the same." Doesn't this mean that since the NKJV differs from the KJV in some places, that the NKJV has to be wrong? Are we seeing a double standard here?
     
    #14 Keith M, Apr 23, 2005
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,396
    Likes Received:
    672
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The "Lord's Prayer" as it appears in the KJV's Matthew 6....

    9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    11Give us this day our daily bread.


    12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

    13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    And from Luke 11....

    2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

    3Give us day by day our daily bread.

    4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

    Logos 1560 had posted this before, and I thought it bore repeating here, as mucho discussion had occurred about this or that version leaving material out. The KJVOs holler about this all the time, but they usually duck when the PROOF that their fave version does the very same thing within itself is presented.
     
    #15 robycop3, Apr 24, 2005
  16. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    15
    Roby, are you saying that Lk. 11:4 originally had the doxology at the end of it? I don't understand your post. But it is interesting that many MSS at the end of Lk. 11:4 have "but deliver us from the evil one," while some do not, including, apparently, the MSS Marcion and Origen used.

    Yours, Bluefalcon
     
    #16 Bluefalcon, Apr 24, 2005
  17. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    Most modern versions disagreed with MASSIVE manuscripts containing this phrase above (See italics).
     
    #17 Askjo, Apr 24, 2005
  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,396
    Likes Received:
    672
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Blue Falcon...

    Since I neither read Koine Greek, nor have access to any mss besides what I could find here on the Net, I'm merely quoting the "Lord's Prayer" as it appears in two books within the KJV. As we see, they're significantly different. At times, I wonder which version Jesus actually said. I tend to lean toward Matthew, since Jesus was always careful to praise His Father. Luke mighta heard it secondhand.

    However, Luke goes into details with some things that Matthew doesn't. Just goes to show ya we simply cannot rely on just one version of Scripture.
     
    #18 robycop3, Apr 24, 2005
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...