Modern worship in church = apostasy?

[annsni]

Check out this christian power-metal band. The music is not simple or primitive, it's bombastic.
I don't see why this music cannot also honor God.

http://www.theocracymusic.com/discography.php

You know, I just checked them out (didn't listen to the music as metal is NOT my style of music so I'm not going to bother) but I didn't see much more than a passing word about God on the entire site. What I DID see was a lot of stuff about this guy's work, how much he's done and how well received they've been.

Now, here's the site of one of my favorite artists:

http://www.mattredman.com/

Yes, this man uses guitars and drums - and can be considered rock (although not heavy like some) - but his heart for the Lord is amazing. We do a lot of his songs at church.

ETA - There is music from Matt when you go to his site. Listen to it for a bit. LOL - I'm leaving his site up for a while while I'm on the computer now.......

 

[Ed Edwards]

When the "Vintage" generation dies off do you suppose they will have modern, overdrive and maximum overdrive?

If you went to the site, you saw the picture for the Vintage service
was the guitar.

 

[Eric B]

Rock and roll is darkness and there is no mixing darkness with light. I will give blanket statements on my beliefs as there is enough to demonstrate to me that God says to sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs and he doesn't say to take that which has an evil root, mix it with some nice words and call it good. You don't have to believe it, you can believe that I'm wrong, but I'm not going to not share my beliefs.

Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are not a style in contrast to "rock", but are about the words (what is being sung about). But words seem to mean little to CCM critics who think a beat accent is decisive in making it "light" or "darkness". Most of your "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" are probably 4/4 time accented as marching rhythms, and 3/4 waltzes (and 6/8 which is a cross between the two). These can be seen as "worldly" and "darkness", and an older generation in the Church centuries ago once thought so. But that doesn't stop you from still accepting them as "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs".
And "flesh" is not just physical pleasure. When churches or cultures, or generations think their music is "light", and others are "darkness" (and with no real scriptural support at all), that is pride, and is also a work of the flesh. So people's "flesh" enjoy the older style music as well, though they are not aware of it!

 

[Rufus_1611]

I will have to get back to you on that. I will have to search through my books to find it and I'm not supposed to be off the couch for a few days per doctor's orders.

It's not a very large book and it is has a soft cover. I can see it in my mind, but cannot recall the name right now. Sorry.

I will look for it and get back to you though.

Thanks for checking. I looked for it on Amazon by title and didn't have any success. I pray God heals whatever is ailing you.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Hah! I'm blaming it on the strong meds!

The Music of Jubal was not a book. It was a message my pastor preached long, long, ago. He has many audio cassettes for $4.50. I'm not sure if that one is on there or not.

Click HERE for web site.

I did find, however, Alan Ives message on How to Tell the Right Kind of Music . Click on the same link above and find an audio Cassette, for $4.50, about 2/3 of the way down the page.

It is the best one I've heard on the subject.
Click HERE for Alan Ives web site.

Here you can buy a DVD of The Right Kind of Music for $17.95. You can also view a video clip of the message on this site where he demonstrates different types of 'beats' on the piano.

Sorry about the mix-up. I thought I was seeing the picture of that other book, in my mind, but I was seeing the picture on the tape...

There is also a small book titled God's Song by Pastor David Moss, North Hills Baptist Church, York, PA, that is really an outstanding book. I haven't tried to Google it.

P.S.
Thanks for the prayer. I am down with a very severe case of Chronic Bronchitis.

 

[Eric B]

I did not know which angle this "the Music of Jubal" would be coming from, but since you cite Ives, I must say I didn't know you were into this music argument as well. I guess I haven''t seen you in this debate on the music forum before, and did not associate you with the Anti-CCM crowd.

But anyway, these claims are based on riduculous, pseudo-scientific claims, with often misinterpreted data. The idea they put forth that only "odd accented" beats are acceptable, and "even accented" (backbeat) is bad, and then all the stuff about syncopation and harmony, while having some grains of observable truth, still do not add up to any sound argument against contemporary music, and are certainly not biblical.

It is based all on a combination of science claims, "associations" (how people in the world have used it, and ultimately, which culture it came from), and from this, assumption that it causes sin, and is contrary to God's nature.

Here is my article on the issue, which covers all of these issues:

http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Whoa, Eric. Slow down and take a deep breath. :laugh:

I do not believe you can find where I ever said I was Anti-CCM. I listen to praise and worship music all the time.

I have heard Alan Ives preach many times and he is a good friend of my son. I do not agree with everything he says, but it doesn't make me want to burn my praise and worship CCM DVD's...

I am personal friends with John Schlitt of Petra, and his wife. (I went to the same church they did when he was in Head East). I don't agree with everything he says either, but it doesn't make me want to run to my Baptist Hymnal...

I was giving Rufus the opportunity to hear what Alan has to say about it.

 

[Eric B]

OK, sorry for the misunderstanding. But from what I have seen, he does basically use those kinds of arguments at this site: www.biblebelievers.com/Ives1.htm

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Yes, he does. As I said, I agree with some of what he believes and I disagree with others. The same as with John Schlitt.

My son, and Alan, are both pastors and they are very close. My son and I disagree on music, but we love each other anyway. :love2:

Actually, I love all kinds of music. I love my CCM praise tapes and I love my traditional hymns.

 

[xdisciplex]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] There's a basic difference. A march has the beat on one and three. ONE, two, THREE, four, ONE, two, THREE, four. Dance music is one, TWO, three, FOUR, one, TWO, three, FOUR. You can hear that old snare drum playing this difference.[/FONT]

Oh yeah, now I see it. It's absolutely evil. The evil snare from Genesis 1.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] That is all that is happening in the rock scene today. They are catching up to some of these African rhythms. And, of course, the Satan worshipers have just turned the amplifiers up to the fullest degree, and many of them do not know, musically, what they are doing anymore. They are just making a lot of noise. Some of them are not even really playing chords; there is not even any harmony or melody there, just a lot of noise. [/FONT]

Boy, what a nonsense. I think this guy has no clue.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

xdx: Why do you persist in asking all these questions when you don't want to hear the answers?

I don't think you want to do anything by yourself. You want all the answers thrown in your face so YOU can either accept or reject them instead of GETTING IN THE WORD and LETTING GOD CHANGE YOU.

It's getting a little old, ya know?

 

[av1611jim]

FWIW:
Everyone......do a little bible study sometime on the difference between "praise" and "worship". The two are VERY different from each other.

Almost without exception, when someone is worshipping God in the Bible they are on thier face or knees. When someone is praising God in the Bible they are standing and making a lot of noise about God's goodness, mercy, etc.

Therefore, how can you be worshipping God while playing music? Ever try to play guitar on your face? (Well BESIDES Jimi Hendrix, ha ha ha)

This buisiness of "worship music" is a lot of hooey which has only recently been invented, i.e. 20th century.


One would do well to use the proper terms when communicating rather than parrot that which is current and popular.

 

[annsni]

FWIW:
Everyone......do a little bible study sometime on the difference between "praise" and "worship". The two are VERY different from each other.

Almost without exception, when someone is worshipping God in the Bible they are on thier face or knees. When someone is praising God in the Bible they are standing and making a lot of noise about God's goodness, mercy, etc.

Therefore, how can you be worshipping God while playing music? Ever try to play guitar on your face? (Well BESIDES Jimi Hendrix, ha ha ha)

This buisiness of "worship music" is a lot of hooey which has only recently been invented, i.e. 20th century.


One would do well to use the proper terms when communicating rather than parrot that which is current and popular.

Rise up and worship - Exodus 33:10 - "And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, each at his tent door."

Worship with offerings, sacrifices, tithes: Deut. 12:4-7 "You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way. 5But you shall seek the place that the LORD your God will choose out of all your tribes to put his name and make his habitation[a] there. There you shall go, 6and there you shall bring your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution that you present, your vow offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock. 7And there you shall eat before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your households, in all that you undertake, in which the LORD your God has blessed you."

Yet now in our present age after Christ came, we now no longer worship just physically but in spirit - and we offer ouselves as a living sacrifice.

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth"

Romans 12:1 "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."

I agree that the majority of worship is done on knees. You know what? I worship many times on my knees too!! Singing, no less! And I praise God always. I don't only worship when singing and I don't only praise when singing. It's a bit of both depending on the song, my spirit and what God is doing in me.

 

[Rufus_1611]

OK, sorry for the misunderstanding. But from what I have seen, he does basically use those kinds of arguments at this site: www.biblebelievers.com/Ives1.htm

Excellent article. Thanks for the link.

 

[Amy.G]

Let's see,
dresses only
KJV only
hymns only
no alchohol
no tabacco
no rock and roll
no tv
no movies
Did I leave anything out?

 

[Rufus_1611]

Let's see,
dresses only
KJV only
hymns only
no alchohol
no tabacco
no rock and roll
no tv
no movies
Did I leave anything out?

That sounds like a good beginning for sanctified living.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." - 2 Corinthians 6:17-18​

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Let's see,
dresses only
KJV only
hymns only
no alchohol
no tabacco
no rock and roll
no tv
no movies
Did I leave anything out?

Not much, but you added some. At least where MY preferences and convictions are concerned.

I wear slacks (but not to church)
I prefer the KJV (there is a difference)
I sing what I like (especially southern gospel)
no alchohol
no tabacco
no rock and roll
I watch TV (but filter out the bad)
I rent movies so I don't have to watch the vile commercials and it's cheaper than going to the theater.

So actually, the alcohol, tobacco, and rock 'n' roll are the only things you got right, at least where I'm concerned.

Please don't paint people with such a wide brush...

And rufus: I may have my own preferences, but I agree with your premise!

 

[Amy.G]

Blessed, I don't mean to paint with a wide brush, but it seems everyday that I come to the BB there's a new rule to follow. If the list keeps growing we might as well sit in the corner under a blanket.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Blessed, I don't mean to paint with a wide brush, but it seems everyday that I come to the BB there's a new rule to follow. If the list keeps growing we might as well sit in the corner under a blanket.

That would break another rule of not hiding your light under a basket.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." - 1 John 5:3​

 

[Ed Edwards]

Blessed, I don't mean to paint with a wide brush, but it seems everyday that I come to the BB there's a new rule to follow. If the list keeps growing we might as well sit in the corner under a blanket.

That list what not all that long. Here is what else we had to
NOT do when I became a teen 50 years ago.

no dancing
no novels under 100 years old
no funny books (now known as 'comic books')
hardly any makeup (lite lipstick was MAX
--- and maybe some foundation, if nobody could see it)
no computers (they hadn't been invented yet)
no unescorted dates until 17