Mom says soldier son followed attack orders

I stand behind our soldiers, but I am not on the military court.

So, I do not know if they are innocent or guilty. That is the purpose of the court.

 

That's what the defendants said at Nuremburg..."We were just following orders."

 

No defense in following orders. When I was in, they made a point of telling us exactly what a lawful order was, and our responsibilities in knowing the difference between a lawful and unlawful order.

Hope they still do.

 

Whose orders were they following ? Is the officer named ?

 

Has anyone proven that they intentionally murdered innocent Iraqis alreay? I didn't realize that they had a trial yet except for in the court of Liberal Politics with judge Murtha Presiding. If they committed murder, then they should be executed (IMO). If they didn't, then the liberals should shut up about it (but they won't because they have never cared about the truth). Until the investigation and trial is over, everyone should stop their gossip about it.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I would hope it's more than "liberals" who are angry about this. Maybe these guys are innocent. But then why are the Marines treating them like the did it.?

They deserve the presumption of innocence in court, just as OJ did. But they aren't entitled to expect people to draw conclusions on the evidence.

 

No one has convicted them yet, Joseph, but that doesn't mean that testimony can be ignored either. They may be proven not guilty, or they may be guilty as sin. The court will decide.

Just because they are "our boys" doesn't mean that there are not bad apples in the barrel. Every organization the size of the US Military will have some criminals in the bunch.

Here is another incident reported today by the Associated Press:

and

Absolutely the presumption is innocence, but the accusers are also American GIs. So which of "our boys" are liars?

Full story at: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14166052/

I believe most of our service personnel serve honorably and with valor. We need to weed out those who bring shame on their uniform and their country.

 

I don't think the liberals are angry at all about this. As a matter of fact, I think the liberal flame-throwers such as yourself are downright giddy at this opportunity to smear the military and their mission in Iraq. You have been searching for years for the silver bullett to turn Iraq into another Vietnam smear campaign.

I am more angry at the liberals like yourself who are more than willing to smear these soldiers for political gain.

Joseph Botwinick

 

What should we do with them? Would that include John Kerry who admits he committed wartime atrocities in his 4 months in Vietnam? Or does the Nuremburg defense somehow work for him, but not these Marines, if they are guilty?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph, stick to topic without bringing your politics into it. If they are found guilty, there are proscribed punishment, up to and including execution (which I am against, BTW).

 

Until you have been in combat, you will never understand the strange behaviours of some soldiers, who are under fire day after day and this includes the civilians, who were the most dangerous killers during the Korean Conflict (as it was called). There are no innocents in war. There is only "our side" and "their side". Rightly or wrongly, my friends, it is so, or we wouldn't survive at all in war.

The biggest fault made in modern warfare is that the press has been given too much freedom.

IN the second World War, my father respected life, even of the enemy, until he marched through Holland and was met with children...children...stuck up on the end of German bayonets. After that time his unit took no prisoners and spared no lives. Was it wrong? I guess you had to witness it. It is easy to moralize on this side of freedom. The same was true in Korea and in VietNam (as I have been told. I did not serve in VietNam). Children and pregnant women carried bombs into allied camps, much like the suicide bombers of to-day, and many soldiers died or were brutally wounded.

Like that old saying about not being critical until you have trod in his mocasins.

Cheers,

Jim (B179755, Captain)

 

So I guess you are ok with Lt. Kerry's war crimes? I noticed a lack of outrage from you about it. I guess all those innocent Vietnemese don't matter when you have a political agenda to fullfill.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I have seen no evidence that Sen. Kerry committed war attrocities. None. If he did, he should have been given the same punishment as Lt. Calley. But he was not found guilty in any court, so why your two-faced stance of defending the Iraq troops accused, but not giving Kerry the same assumption?

As for political agendas in all this, my only agenda is to see justice done and those that disgrace my country I love be punished for their actions. I don't care if they are GOP or Democratic, murderers should be punished. (And for heavens sake, that isn't an invitation to derail into yet another abortion discussion).

 

Note, the oath of enlistment into the armed forces of the United States has a qualifier to following orders:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I, ______________, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.[/FONT]

 

Yep

And Kerry did not keep his word to the oath of office he swoar . . .

 

MP,

Ummm...I guess because Kerry actually admitted to it.

Link

 

I actually saw MTP the day the transcript is from. I also think that Kerry may have been right, it could have been angry words from a young activist, filled with exageration and hyperbole. I don't know, you don't know. Kerry now has backed off of that comment, and it could be for political gain, or just reflection of an older and wiser man. I suspect a bit of both.

Still, if that were so, why did the military not bring charges against him? I stand by that he has not been tried and found guilty of anything, so it is pointless to debate this unless he is tried and found guilty. If so, appropriate punishment should be imposed. So much for your assuming I care not for Vietnamese villagers. Using your logic, it is you who think nothing of killing and raping Iraqi women and children. Now, that said, I don't believe that about you, Joseph. So before you try to state what someone feels or believes, you'd best ask them first.

 

I note you are willing to give Lt. Kerry the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you might extend the same courtesy to the current Marines who claim they are innocent if you really give a rip about the truth and are not just another liberal hack chomping at the bit to find a reason to condemn the war in Iraq in the court of public opinion.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Because the military would have been seen as vindictive. They would have been tried in the court of public opinion. Kerry would have gone to Leavenworth, and the political damage to our boys in uniform would have been even worse.

As a lawyer, Kerry moved politically from start to finish. And in his words, he got away with war crimes & probably even killing civilians.

That is evil. Republican or Democrat - that kind of crime is evil. This kind of crime eats away at the very fabric of America - that very fabric that he wrapped himself in as made this sound like a patriotic speech from the Revolution Era. He soiled the fabric of America from 1776 to 1976. That filth is still washing out of the fabric that he soiled.

IMHO.