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Moral Law vs Ceremonial Law
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
1. Your are confusing civil law with moral law. Civil law applies as long as the nation that makes that law exists. In this case - the Theocracy of Israel could enforce laws against murder as along as that theocracy existed.
hint: So That does NOT mean that Christians should kill someone in church that is found to be guilty of murder.
2. "Salvation" - SIN and "The GOSPEL" remain the same in the days of John the baptizer, the days of Paul, the days of Christ... the days of Peter.
Gal 1:6-11 "ONLY ONE GOSPEL" in all of time. But the Judaizers -- like many today were proposing that a works-based religion of the OT WAS in fact "Another successful Gospel" in fact they argued it was an EVEN BETTER Gospel in their -two-gospel model. But today two-gospel proponants claim that the works-religion of the Judaizers was another gospel -- just not as good a gospel.
in Christ,
Bob
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I confuse no such thing. It was God that established law concerning murder, NOT Israel. Israel, at its birth, did not make up its laws. God Himself gave them their laws, both morally and ceremonially. God is the author of all moral law BR. Man’s law, which this discussion is not about, governing so-called moral issues, are only binding upon us as they are in agreement with the principles of moral law God ordained and established.
Even our laws governing murder today are based on biblical mandates from God, not man or any nation.
HP: Where does it state ‘one gospel in all of time’ in that passage? What gives you the right to simply insert what you desire for it to say?
Brother Bob
New Member
There were many ceremonial laws that did not require animal sacrifice, such as not to eat with sinners, if your trim you beard the wrong way to remain outside of the camp, until it had grown back out and was trimed straight across. I could name many of the ceremonial laws that does not require sacrifice, but the moral laws are pretty well covered in the ten commandments.IMO The punishment rendered is another subject.BobRyan said:
BBob,
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Moral law ve ceremonial law
1. An unbeliever is not under grace in any way. He is either trying to keep the law, merely living after the flesh with no regard to his sin, or more likely, trying to just be good enough on his own to get on God's good side.
2. A believer in not under the law (ie. the OT law) in any way.
Rom 6:4 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
This truth is often written off due to the lable of anti-nomianism. However, a believer has the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus over them.
"How can this be?" says Bob Ryan and the like. I with Paul say " Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?"
And again I say with Paul, " I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Paul and I also say "we have been planted together in the likeness of his death". There are numerous ways Paul says we are "dead".
This is how we are no longer under the law.
3. An unbeliever is under the law (the OT law) only if he is aware of it and understands it. If not, he is a law unto himself and is under the condemnation of not being able to live up to his own standards.
4. An believer is under grace in the sense that it is what drives him and empowers him. This is what makes the new covenant better than the old.
Tit. 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world." That is right, grace is teaching us. No longer are we under the schoolmaster of the law: we have put on Christ. "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls". A Jewish Rabbi's teaching is called his yoke." Matt. 11:29
Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
In conclusion, only a believer has the grace of God "over" them. The rest are running from it or sleeping and not seeing it. This grace has appeared to all men in the sense that it is not for Jews only; not that everybody has heard the gospel
1. An unbeliever is not under grace in any way. He is either trying to keep the law, merely living after the flesh with no regard to his sin, or more likely, trying to just be good enough on his own to get on God's good side.
2. A believer in not under the law (ie. the OT law) in any way.
Rom 6:4 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
This truth is often written off due to the lable of anti-nomianism. However, a believer has the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus over them.
"How can this be?" says Bob Ryan and the like. I with Paul say " Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?"
And again I say with Paul, " I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Paul and I also say "we have been planted together in the likeness of his death". There are numerous ways Paul says we are "dead".
This is how we are no longer under the law.
3. An unbeliever is under the law (the OT law) only if he is aware of it and understands it. If not, he is a law unto himself and is under the condemnation of not being able to live up to his own standards.
4. An believer is under grace in the sense that it is what drives him and empowers him. This is what makes the new covenant better than the old.
Tit. 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world." That is right, grace is teaching us. No longer are we under the schoolmaster of the law: we have put on Christ. "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls". A Jewish Rabbi's teaching is called his yoke." Matt. 11:29
Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
In conclusion, only a believer has the grace of God "over" them. The rest are running from it or sleeping and not seeing it. This grace has appeared to all men in the sense that it is not for Jews only; not that everybody has heard the gospel
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
TrustitL, One thing I do like is your direct attempt to answer the questions. :thumbs:
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: In the strictest sense I agree. Think about this for a minute. In this dosepensation God’s grace is said to be poured out to all in a new and fresh way before unseen. In the OT His grace was indeed centered and focused upon the children of Israel with seemingly only an occasional Gentile being grafted in. In the NT God has specifically targeted a group that was not His target group before, as clearly stated by Christ Himself at the advent of His ministry, the Gentile race. Not that all will accept the grace offered, but that a day has arrived that God’s grace is indeed poured out in such a way that makes it far more possible that all might hear and respond to the message. We as His followers are commanded to go into the highways and the byways and to compel all to receive Christ as their Savior. That was never a commandment in the OT. There were indeed specific times that gospel at least seemed to have been offered to some Gentiles, but that was clearly the exception and not the rule. Things have changed in this dispensation. Grace is reaching where it never did before.
Long before I became a believer, grace reached out to me as a sinner. As a child on my mother’s knee I was the blessed recipient of God’s grace in ways that few have such a privilege to experience. Was I not ‘in a sense,’ ‘under grace’ even then as a child that had not accepted Christ as my Savior? I believe I was. Not that such grace coerced me or forced me to accept Christ latter on in life, but that it was a purely gratuitous show of God’s grace upon my life to allow me to be birthed into a family that walked so close with God.
HP: I agree with the clarifier you placed upon your sentence, i.e.,’ in the OT way.’ No man is under the law in that way or sense, not even the Gentile or the unsaved Jew unless they simply willingly place themselves under bondage God in no way demands of any today. The sacrificial system, circumcision, the ordinances of the OT, etc. have been abolished as conditions for forgiveness or acceptance. Just the same, we all ‘in a sense’ are under the moral law of God in that it serves as a timeless rule of action with consequences if broken. Certainly it does not judge us when we are found to be in compliance with its principles, but it stands ready to condemn us, even as believers, when we transgress its principles. Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
HP: Try to avoid the consequences of sin as a believer as one may, one will gain no traction against the moral commandments and their sanctions. When a believer sins he or she falls squarely under the condemnation that the law demands as a just penalty for sin. That penalty remains as our hope until such time as we fulfill the conditions for forgiveness, which are repentance and faith. We indeed do have an Advocate standing willing and waiting to plead our case, when we fulfill the conditions God said must be fulfilled to experience forgiveness.
One only needs to walk in the Spirit in a consistent manner in order to live a life free of the condemnation of the law. That will take the help of the Holy Spirit and our willing cooperation in obedience to see such a walk experienced. Those will indeed be the overcomers spoken of often in Scripture.
HP: Excellent point. :thumbs: God does not hold anyone eternally responsible, not even the sinner, for that which he absolutely does not know.
HP: There are some distinct advantages to us that no other generation has experienced as we do on the wide spread level that we do.
HP: It was in this last sense that I see the grace of God in ‘one sense’ being poured out to all in our present dispensation. In this limited sense I see even the sinner today as a recipient of God’s grace and mercy, at least for a brief time period.
HP
Was I not ‘in a sense,’ ‘under grace’ even then as a child that had not accepted Christ as my Savior?
I would not say that you were under grace in the sense Paul was talking about when contrasting it to being under law. I would say your experience is best explained by the following:
I Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
HP
Just the same, we all ‘in a sense’ are under the moral law of God in that it serves as a timeless rule of action with consequences if broken. Certainly it does not judge us when we are found to be in compliance with its principles, but it stands ready to condemn us,
I don't think the rule of action for a believer is the Law: moral, civil or ceremonial (these distinctions are man made by the way). Being alive unto God and indwelt by His Spirit is the believers "law" and the condemnation a believer faces is not the same condemnation an unbeliever does. In fact, many people teach that believers can not come into condemnation at all.
For example:
I Tim. 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. This does not send this man to eternal condemnation. It is like the handing of a believer over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.
HP
When a believer sins he or she falls squarely under the condemnation that the law demands as a just penalty for sin. That penalty remains as our hope until such time as we fulfill the conditions for forgiveness, which are repentance and faith. We indeed do have an Advocate standing willing and waiting to plead our case, when we fulfill the conditions God said must be fulfilled to experience forgiveness.
The Catholics say they have their sins forgiven when they go to the priest for"confession" on Saturday. I John 1:9 has become the protestant confessional and is usually done on a Sunday morning when the preacher makes them feel guilty. They confess their sins and say they have been forgiven. Not so. A believer is saved by faith and is kept by faith and his sins are not held against him until he confesses them.
HP
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
This man's righteousness is his works. My righteousness is not mine but has been imputed to me. When I turn from THAT righteousness is when I am in trouble.
Heb. 10:29 "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
HP Quoted:
Ezek. 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD
This truth is repeated to the Jews in Romans 2 and is used to set them up for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
HP: It was in this last sense that I see the grace of God in ‘one sense’ being poured out to all in our present dispensation. In this limited sense I see even the sinner today as a recipient of God’s grace and mercy, at least for a brief time period.
I had never really thought of it this way. It is grace that saves us: in other words takes us from death into life. So it is in an unbelievers life. But is it in all unbeleivers lives? I am going to chew on this one awhile. :thumbs:
Was I not ‘in a sense,’ ‘under grace’ even then as a child that had not accepted Christ as my Savior?
I would not say that you were under grace in the sense Paul was talking about when contrasting it to being under law. I would say your experience is best explained by the following:
I Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
HP
Just the same, we all ‘in a sense’ are under the moral law of God in that it serves as a timeless rule of action with consequences if broken. Certainly it does not judge us when we are found to be in compliance with its principles, but it stands ready to condemn us,
I don't think the rule of action for a believer is the Law: moral, civil or ceremonial (these distinctions are man made by the way). Being alive unto God and indwelt by His Spirit is the believers "law" and the condemnation a believer faces is not the same condemnation an unbeliever does. In fact, many people teach that believers can not come into condemnation at all.
For example:
I Tim. 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. This does not send this man to eternal condemnation. It is like the handing of a believer over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.
HP
When a believer sins he or she falls squarely under the condemnation that the law demands as a just penalty for sin. That penalty remains as our hope until such time as we fulfill the conditions for forgiveness, which are repentance and faith. We indeed do have an Advocate standing willing and waiting to plead our case, when we fulfill the conditions God said must be fulfilled to experience forgiveness.
The Catholics say they have their sins forgiven when they go to the priest for"confession" on Saturday. I John 1:9 has become the protestant confessional and is usually done on a Sunday morning when the preacher makes them feel guilty. They confess their sins and say they have been forgiven. Not so. A believer is saved by faith and is kept by faith and his sins are not held against him until he confesses them.
HP
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
This man's righteousness is his works. My righteousness is not mine but has been imputed to me. When I turn from THAT righteousness is when I am in trouble.
Heb. 10:29 "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
HP Quoted:
Ezek. 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD
This truth is repeated to the Jews in Romans 2 and is used to set them up for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
HP: It was in this last sense that I see the grace of God in ‘one sense’ being poured out to all in our present dispensation. In this limited sense I see even the sinner today as a recipient of God’s grace and mercy, at least for a brief time period.
I had never really thought of it this way. It is grace that saves us: in other words takes us from death into life. So it is in an unbelievers life. But is it in all unbeleivers lives? I am going to chew on this one awhile. :thumbs:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: The ten commandments not the rule of action for the believer? Why not? I know full well that Jesus said we are to be held to even a higher law, the law of love, but just the same, can the law of love violate the clear precepts of the ten commandments? Which of the ten as a believer do you think one can violate with impunity, if any? If you do not believe that a believer should, or can, or will violate any of them, why is it not a rule of action for all men everywhere?
God has given to man an intellect with certain reasoning powers. God has instilled within man principles of justice and mercy, right and wrong, coupled with abilities of discernment. For you to say that moral and ceremonial law is a distinction made by man alone, you are simply deceived. What fair minded person cannot see principles so evident in moral law as opposed to ceremonial law or civil law? God informed us that certain laws were temporary, and where used for a time as a schoolmaster, while others were written in stone by the hand of God involving clear principles of immutability, fitness, impartiality, objectivity and other clearly recognizable attributes . I say this kindly, but if you fail to see a clear distinction, or think that such distinctions are simply the figment of the human imagination, between moral, ceremonial, and civil law, you need to spend time studying and seeking the Lord to open your eyes to the truth.
There was a time when in our schools of higher learning morals were taught. What a loss that has been upon the church and nation to see that area of study pass by the way side. What was once the very bedrock of our educational system in almost every major college founded up until the middle to latter 1800’s around the United States, has seen the axe of the so-called separation of church and state.
From Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians:
http://www.studylight.org/com/mlg/view.cgi?book=ga&chapter=002&phrase=#phrase
http://www.studylight.org/com/mlg/view.cgi?book=ga&chapter=002&phrase=#phrase
Moral vs ceremonial Law
Maybe it would be better for me to say:
Dividing up the law into segments and having some apply to believers is man made.
Deut. 6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Deut. 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The Mosiac Law was for the Jews, to bring them to Christ although much in the Mosiac Law relates to the Kingdom of God.
Murder was wrong before the 10 commandments and it is wrong now. The law did not make it wrong.
Rom. 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.
Rom 7:13 But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
HP
Which of the ten as a believer do you think one can violate with impunity, if any? If you do not believe that a believer should, or can, or will violate any of them, why is it not a rule of action for all men everywhere?
Which of the laws of Zimbabwe can I break? Those laws have nothing to do with me. When I murder, which is unlawful in Zimbabwe and the US, it is not the law of Zimbabwe I am breaking.
Not having the 10 Commandments "over" us as believers is so scary to most Christians is because they continue to look to the law to guide and control us.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
These are not verses that talk about being saved by the law, rather they are living out our salvation verses. We are not to do it by the law. In other words, I am not going to resist ... because of "Thou shalt not..." written is stone.
I began in the Spirit and I will continue in it.
Maybe it would be better for me to say:
Dividing up the law into segments and having some apply to believers is man made.
Deut. 6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Deut. 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The Mosiac Law was for the Jews, to bring them to Christ although much in the Mosiac Law relates to the Kingdom of God.
Murder was wrong before the 10 commandments and it is wrong now. The law did not make it wrong.
Rom. 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.
Rom 7:13 But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
HP
Which of the ten as a believer do you think one can violate with impunity, if any? If you do not believe that a believer should, or can, or will violate any of them, why is it not a rule of action for all men everywhere?
Which of the laws of Zimbabwe can I break? Those laws have nothing to do with me. When I murder, which is unlawful in Zimbabwe and the US, it is not the law of Zimbabwe I am breaking.
Not having the 10 Commandments "over" us as believers is so scary to most Christians is because they continue to look to the law to guide and control us.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
These are not verses that talk about being saved by the law, rather they are living out our salvation verses. We are not to do it by the law. In other words, I am not going to resist ... because of "Thou shalt not..." written is stone.
I began in the Spirit and I will continue in it.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Maybe it would be better to say that God wrote some on tablets of stone and others he did not.
HP: Why do you try and emphasis the land in quoting the verses? The simple truth is that they were to be obedient to God as He commanded them and go in and possess the land that he gave them.
HP: Why do you first claim that man is responsible for the divisions of law like moral law and ceremonial law, and then make a distinction of the “Mosaic law” as being ‘for the Jews?’ I am not, in a sense, disagreeing with you entirely, I simply desire to see how you establish that point.
HP: The law of God serves many functions. Placing some in stone serves a special purpose. It establishes for time and eternity certain principles that God desires there to be no questions concerning. It also informs the ignorant of principles of love and obedience into the hearts and minds of the human race, principles that might not otherwise be clearly understood or comprehended by all. Paul said that he had not known the true meaning of coveting apart from the law telling him not to covet. Certainly there were some laws that were given simply to the Jews for whatever benefit God saw them for at the time that may in fact not apply to us. God grants to us the powers of reason and has instilled intuitive moral principles within us to guide us today in what God requires of us today. He may even require something out of me that He does not out of you, or the other way around. You can take it to the bank that God requires us all to live by the ten moral commandments he carved in stone. As believers this should come, not as some hardship or regimented task but as the simple outgrowth of love towards God and our fellowman. The simple straightforward principles of Gods moral law should be engrained in our conscience and followed as the normal outcome of our walk with the Lord. Again we obey them, not simply out of duty, but out of a heart of love lead by the Holy Spirit.
HP: Moral laws are NOT established by any human government, they are only recognized as moral and therefore binding or not and enforced or not. Regardless whether or not some country enforces the law of murder or has such a law on their books, it is just as wrong for one to commit murder in one place as it is in another. God will judge every man in the end for their actions in violation with His moral law. No one will escape the condemnation and penalty of God’s moral law without the Advocate Jesus Christ interceding on their behalf, having repented of their sins and turned to Christ in faith and obedience.
HP: Believe as you may, if one violates God’s moral law, refusing to repent and turn from such actions, there will come a day that they will feel the heavy arm of God’s judgment upon them. There will be no escape, and there will be no exceptions. For one to believe that because God’s mercy has been extended to them for sins that are past that somehow that will cover for future sins unrepented of is sheer presumption on their part as to the extent of God’s mercy ad grace. If one believes they have been forgiven of sins that are past yet no change is present in their behavior from that of their past, finding themselves committing the same sins over and over that they did before, that is evident that their has been no heart change or attitude concerning sin, hence the required condition of sincere repentance has not been met. Their hope is based upon the sand and not upon the solid rock and will not be found to be the sure hope needed to inherit eternal life.
Heb 3:7 ¶ Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Moral law vs. Ceremonial law
HP: Why do you first claim that man is responsible for the divisions of law like moral law and ceremonial law, and then make a distinction of the “Mosaic law” as being ‘for the Jews?’ I am not, in a sense, disagreeing with you entirely, I simply desire to see how you establish that point.
God was speaking to a group of people and gave them laws. He made it very clear that it was for them. I don't know how to make it any easier than that.
HP
Paul said that he had not known the true meaning of coveting apart from the law telling him not to covet.
Actually, Paul said "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
He is saying here that he had convinced himself he war righteous except for the coveting thing. The other laws were actions that he could set out to do. This law revealed his heart in a way the other laws didn't. In other words, the law was working exactly the way God intended it to.
HP
God grants to us the powers of reason and has instilled intuitive moral principles within us to guide us today in what God requires of us today. He may even require something out of me that He does not out of you, or the other way around. You can take it to the bank that God requires us all to live by the ten moral commandments he carved in stone
Then why do we need the stones?
Regarding, what God requires of me and you: I think it is to walk by faith. Paul addresses later in Romans:
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.
Which of the laws of Zimbabwe can I break? Those laws have nothing to do with me. When I murder, which is unlawful in Zimbabwe and the US, it is not the law of Zimbabwe I am breaking.
When I wrote this my point was that the laws where we live are the ones over us. I am in the kingdom of God and live accordingly.
Col. 2:20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances"
HP
No one will escape the condemnation and penalty of God’s moral law without the Advocate Jesus Christ interceding on their behalf, having repented of their sins and turned to Christ in faith and obedience.
Amen!
HP
If one believes they have been forgiven of sins that are past yet no change is present in their behavior from that of their past, finding themselves committing the same sins over and over that they did before, that is evident that their has been no heart change or attitude concerning sin, hence the required condition of sincere repentance has not been met.
Couldn't have said it better.
HP: Why do you first claim that man is responsible for the divisions of law like moral law and ceremonial law, and then make a distinction of the “Mosaic law” as being ‘for the Jews?’ I am not, in a sense, disagreeing with you entirely, I simply desire to see how you establish that point.
God was speaking to a group of people and gave them laws. He made it very clear that it was for them. I don't know how to make it any easier than that.
HP
Paul said that he had not known the true meaning of coveting apart from the law telling him not to covet.
Actually, Paul said "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
He is saying here that he had convinced himself he war righteous except for the coveting thing. The other laws were actions that he could set out to do. This law revealed his heart in a way the other laws didn't. In other words, the law was working exactly the way God intended it to.
HP
God grants to us the powers of reason and has instilled intuitive moral principles within us to guide us today in what God requires of us today. He may even require something out of me that He does not out of you, or the other way around. You can take it to the bank that God requires us all to live by the ten moral commandments he carved in stone
Then why do we need the stones?
Regarding, what God requires of me and you: I think it is to walk by faith. Paul addresses later in Romans:
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.
Which of the laws of Zimbabwe can I break? Those laws have nothing to do with me. When I murder, which is unlawful in Zimbabwe and the US, it is not the law of Zimbabwe I am breaking.
When I wrote this my point was that the laws where we live are the ones over us. I am in the kingdom of God and live accordingly.
Col. 2:20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances"
HP
No one will escape the condemnation and penalty of God’s moral law without the Advocate Jesus Christ interceding on their behalf, having repented of their sins and turned to Christ in faith and obedience.
Amen!
HP
If one believes they have been forgiven of sins that are past yet no change is present in their behavior from that of their past, finding themselves committing the same sins over and over that they did before, that is evident that their has been no heart change or attitude concerning sin, hence the required condition of sincere repentance has not been met.
Couldn't have said it better.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gal 1 - "ONLY ONE Gospel"
Gal 3 "THE Gospel preached to ABRAHAM" Gal 3:7
Heb 4:1 "The GOSPEL preached to US JUST as it was to THEM also"
John 8 "Abraham SAW MY day and was GLAD".
I can go on if you like.
However you have made my point for me -- in that your post seems to argue that you DO believe in TWO Gospels and that I should have to prove there is in fact only one.
Notice that this is exactly the argument that the Judaizers were making against Paul. They were arguing that their works-based-gospel was ANOTHER one -- a BETTER one.
You argue that it is a valid - OTHER gospel but not AS GOOD a one.
Still the both of you are arguing for TWO valid gospels.