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More about eschatology and preterism...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by robycop3, Oct 15, 2017.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
    From the same dictionary:



    Given these definitions, I don't believe I'm a bit remiss in asking for PROOF from preterists that the prophesied events they SAY have already occurred, HAVE actually occurred. As Christians, we must believe EVERY WORD that Jesus spoke and chose to preserve in writing into the present day. Thus, His prophecies MUST be fulfilled EXACTLY, TO THE LETTER.

    However, preterists use excuses, speculation, guesswork, and sometimes outright falsehoods to attempt to support their doctrine and their pronouncements. For example, in a recently-closed thread, a preterist saidthat "falling stars" and "a hail of rocks weighing about a talent apiece" COULD have been the missiles launched by the Romans against Jerusalem during their siege.

    No, they could NOT.

    Roman catapults were used to batter down walls or city gates, only being seldom-used as anti-personnel weapons. No one hid in caves to avoid those rocks in Jerusalem.

    And someone said the mark of the beast COULD have been either the eagle ensigns carried by the Romans, or the likeness of Nero or other Caesars on Roman coins.

    No, they could NOT. Scripture says the beast from the earth will require ALL PEOPLE to receive the mark in/on either the right hand or the forehead. Only the Romans carried their ensigns, and no one wore either a Roman ensign or Roman coin on their right hands or foreheads.

    Did Jesus return in 70 AD? If so, how come the world continues today as it did then?

    When was all life in the seas killed?

    When was all green grass burned up?

    When did an evil ruler set up a statue of himself in the temple in Jerusalem? Yes, Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Jupiter in the temple & sacrificed swine on its altar in the 160s BC, but JESUS, in Matt. 24, said the abomination of desolation was still future.

    I have NOT seen a preterist answer to those questions. Both Jesus Himself, and Paul, writing what Jesus told him, said Jesus wouldn't return til all those events, and many more I didn't mention here, were all fulfilled.

    Preterists, you simply CANNOT fill in the gaps between your doctrines and pronouncements, and HISTORY/REALITY. Isn't it about time you admit you accidentally believed a false doctrine, and it's time to ababdon it?


    In a just-closed thread, a preterist said
     
    #1 robycop3, Oct 15, 2017
  2. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Was it Jupiter, I thought that was a Roman God. There is a statue of Jupiter in a church in Rome, I think it is St Peters, but they have renamed it Peter.
     
    #2 David Kent, Oct 15, 2017
  3. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Why do you keep posting silly questions but don't read the answers.
    Luke tells us that the AOD was armies surrounding Jerusalem
     
    #3 David Kent, Oct 15, 2017
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  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So these armies set up a statue in the Temple? When did that happen?

    Let's see what Matthew and Mark say in the parallel passages.

    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
     
    #4 TCassidy, Oct 15, 2017
  5. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Doesn't say in the temple. Jerusalem was the holy place.

    You have to read all three together and not pick out the bits that suit your theory. Luke was covering the same conversation as M&M . Each added something that the others did not, so you have to read them all together.
    • Luke 21: 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    • 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    • 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    The Jews understood that. When Herod invited one of the Roman generals to visit him in Jerusalem, there was almost a war started then. In the end the general came but his troops stayed away from the city. Calm was restored.

    What was it that desolated Jerusalem in AD 70? The Roman armies.

    Josephus wrote a brief history of Jerusalem. In it he said that Jerusalem had been conquered a number of times but only two desolations, the first by Neb and the Babylonians, the second by Titus and the Romans. Daniel tells us that the Romans would set up the AOD, I have posted it on here before. I will get a bit like Robycop3 keep repeating.
     
    #5 David Kent, Oct 15, 2017
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  6. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    They are all parallel passages, meaning the same thing.

    Luke explained what these passages mean... Armies surrounding Jerusalem.

    I don't think a world wide armageddon is going to matter If we flee to the mountains or not.
     
    #6 prophecy70, Oct 15, 2017
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  7. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    You can't even answer simple questions that I asked about the cloud comings in the OT. You are just stuck on repeat.
     
    #7 prophecy70, Oct 15, 2017
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Exactly.

    The AOD is "Standing in the temple."
     
    #8 TCassidy, Oct 15, 2017
  9. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    That is adding to scripture,
     
    #9 David Kent, Oct 15, 2017
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  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, or ever will happen.
     
    #10 TCassidy, Oct 15, 2017
  11. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Chapter & verse pleeeeeeeez.
     
    #11 Covenanter, Oct 15, 2017
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  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then everyone will see the Son of Man arriving in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send angels and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
     
    #12 TCassidy, Oct 15, 2017
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

    Pulpit Commentary
    Christ takes it for granted that his auditors understand the allusion. Stand [standing] in the holy place. Those who take "the abomination" to be the Roman army, explain this clause to mean "posted on the holy soil." But τομπος ἁμγιος, with or without the article, is never used but in reference to the temple and its adjuncts. Whatever the sign may be, it is to be seen within the temple.
     
    #13 TCassidy, Oct 15, 2017
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  14. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    That must be one of the MVs, is it the Message?

    My bible says
    • 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
    Not worse than, but such as, That means different in type. There was no tribulation such as that.because God exacting vengeance on the Jews for putting to death their Messiah. He destroyed the Temple, and abolished the priesthood, ended the sacrifice, None such as that,

    You forget that Jesus started the conversation after proclaiming woes on the Pharisees and scribes when he said
    • Matthew 23:35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
    • 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    • 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    • 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    The apostles must have been amazed at that because just after they left the temple they drew Jesus' attention to the great stones which Josephus said were 25 cubits long, He also gave the height and depth, which were similarly great (I can't remember how big) and they seemed be puzzled and questioned Him as to how that could be, His answer was to tell them about the destruction of the temple, repeating that it would be in that generation. Why don't you believe Him?
     
    #14 David Kent, Oct 15, 2017
  15. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    You don't need commentaries to answer what it means, the bible tells us.
    • Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
     
    #15 David Kent, Oct 15, 2017
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  16. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Well the armies did stand in the temple and sacrificed to their standards in the Holy Place, Josephus
     
    #16 David Kent, Oct 15, 2017
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    τομπος ἁμγιος, with or without the article, is never used but in reference to the temple.
     
    #17 TCassidy, Oct 15, 2017
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    τομπος ἁμγιος, with or without the article, is never used but in reference to the temple.
     
    #18 TCassidy, Oct 15, 2017
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    So how do you explain Luke 21:20? Do you suppose that it describes a different event to Mark 13:14 and Matthew 24:15?
    Just wondering.
     
    #19 Martin Marprelate, Oct 15, 2017
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  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Prophecy of the end of the Jewish city, temple, and people.

    Yes, but also perhaps a double prophecy, the sooner depicting the later.
     
    #20 TCassidy, Oct 15, 2017
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