-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
More Seventh-Day Adventists
- Thread starter Ed Edwards
- Start date
Claudia, what you have posted has absolutely nothing to do with the atonement. If you want to start a thread on the work of Satan then start a new thread. But stay on topic here. Again Satan and the book of Job, or Satan and his work has nothing to do with Christ and the atonement. Stay on topic.Claudia_T said:
You have to compare Revelation and the Book of Daniel to be able to understand that it is the time of the Judgment. Jesus is in the Sanctuary pleading our case and obedience has much to do with the outcome...
Revelation 14:6-12
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Daniel 7
1: In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
2: Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3: And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4: The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5: And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6: After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7: After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8: I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9: I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10: A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11: I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12: As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14: And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15: I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16: I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17: These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18: But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19: Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20: And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21: I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22: Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23: Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24: And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26: But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27: And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28: Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.
Revelation 14:6-12
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Daniel 7
1: In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
2: Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3: And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4: The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5: And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6: After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7: After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8: I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9: I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10: A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11: I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12: As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14: And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15: I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16: I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17: These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18: But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19: Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20: And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21: I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22: Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23: Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24: And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26: But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27: And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28: Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Marcia said:
Which explains why SDAs love that book.
it teaches in chapter one that there is ONLY ONE Gospel.
In chapter 3 it states that it is that SAME Gospel that was preached in the OT going even as far back as Abraham!
And Chapter 3 also states that in that OT Gospel -- the Law was NEVER given as a "savior" a "means of salvation" rather the Law of God THEN under the ONE Gospel "defines sin" just as it does today!!
And yet the man-made traditions of others twist and re-invent that teaching to their own purposes - time after time.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Corinth "EACH ONE" has a revelation according to Paul - not just "the biggotted men" of 1Cor 14.
In 1Cor 12 EACH ONE is given a spiritual Gift for the building up of the Church.
in the book of Acts Philips daughters prophesy for the NT church.
In Acts Priscilla instructs Apollos --
Just when biggotry thought it found a place it could hide in scripture -- it is fully exposed and debunked.
in Christ,
Bob
I was merely stating the painfully obvious from those texts.
None are so blind as those who "will" not see.
In Christ,
Bob
In Corinth "EACH ONE" has a revelation according to Paul - not just "the biggotted men" of 1Cor 14.
In 1Cor 12 EACH ONE is given a spiritual Gift for the building up of the Church.
in the book of Acts Philips daughters prophesy for the NT church.
In Acts Priscilla instructs Apollos --
Just when biggotry thought it found a place it could hide in scripture -- it is fully exposed and debunked.
in Christ,
Bob
I was merely stating the painfully obvious from those texts.
None are so blind as those who "will" not see.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God said
1Cor 12
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
But DHK said --
Facinating twist and bend of scripture on DHKs part!!
No wander man-made traditions get so much attention for those who would water down scripture in such a way!!
But then as we recall - to Calvinists "World" does not really mean "World" and "all" does not really mean "ALL".
In Christ,
Bob
1Cor 12
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
But DHK said --
Facinating twist and bend of scripture on DHKs part!!
No wander man-made traditions get so much attention for those who would water down scripture in such a way!!
But then as we recall - to Calvinists "World" does not really mean "World" and "all" does not really mean "ALL".
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Corinth "EACH ONE has a revelation" as the TEXT saYS -- BUT as DHK points out "EACH one " does not really mean "EACH ONE" it means very importent men only -- so "BOTH of them" replaces "EACH one of them" in DHK's Bible.
How "instructive".
1 Corinthians 14[/b]
1 Pursue love, yet [b]desire earnestly[/b] spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.[/b]
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.[/b]
OH but "that part of the Bible is not meant for women to read" - you might be saying DHK...
But then we SEE in Acts that Philips 4 daughters are prophets for the church even as Miriam was a prophet in her day and Deborah a Judge and a prophet in her day...
so much bible to be ignored DHK -- and so little time to do it. But how else are you going to get to the DHK conclusion where DHK said "Women are always out of order aren't they?"
In Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Quote:GOD SAID
Gen:3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God said in Rev 12 that "SATAN" is the "SERPENT of old" the one in the garden.
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, ""Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
BUT DHK SAID
DHK argues that because they are not FORCED -- it can not be Satan's fault.
In Romans 6 and in 1Cor 10 we are told that God does not allow US TO BE FORCED either -- "NO TEMPTATION has overcome you but such as is common to man and GOD IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU ARE ABLE but WILL with the temptation PROVIDE the way of ESCAPE"
So much Bible to be ignored by DHK - -so little time.
In Christ,
Bob
Gen:3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God said in Rev 12 that "SATAN" is the "SERPENT of old" the one in the garden.
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, ""Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
BUT DHK SAID
DHK argues that because they are not FORCED -- it can not be Satan's fault.
In Romans 6 and in 1Cor 10 we are told that God does not allow US TO BE FORCED either -- "NO TEMPTATION has overcome you but such as is common to man and GOD IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU ARE ABLE but WILL with the temptation PROVIDE the way of ESCAPE"
So much Bible to be ignored by DHK - -so little time.
In Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Considering His "Atoning SACRIFICE" completed ONCE for all at the cross - the most significant words in the bible
1John 2:2 "AND He is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" --
Atoning sacrifice of Christ - full and complete at the cross!
1John 2:2 "AND He is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" --
Atoning sacrifice of Christ - full and complete at the cross!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The bible says Acquilla AND Priscilla -- DHK said that it really just means "Acquilla taught Apollos ALONE" because in DHK's mind it would not be right for PRISCILLA to share what she knew about the gospel with Apollos since it might be correcting his views and "it is MORE important in that case for a woman not to speak than to share truth".
So much Bible to be bent and redefined by DHK - so little time.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Marcia said:
The Bible shows the work of Christ as our High Priest in heaven - and in Lev 16 it shows that the Work of the High priest is central to the PROCESS of Atonement. It does not end the Day of Atonement with "a dead lamb" but it takes the blood of the dead lamb - into the Sanctuary.
Heb 8 and 9 make it clear that this is "into heaven itself" into the sanctuary that GOD made - not man.
You say the High Priestly work SHOWN in Lev 16 Day of Atonement is not PART of the Day of Atonement.
For that idea you have only you as the source.
The Argument of Christ in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS LORD LORD but those who DO the will of My Father will enter the kingdom of heaven" -- he does not say "Because they SAVE THEMSELVES by obeying".
In Rom 2 when Paul says "Not the HEARERS of the LAW but the DOERS of the Law will be justified" He is not saying "Because they become their own saviors by OBEYING".
in James 2 when James says "YOU SEE then that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone" He does not mean "because they become their OWN SAVIOR by WORKS"
Certainly we can all agree there.
"By GRACE are you saved through FAITH not of WORKS lest anyone should boast" -- but those IN Christ are a NEW CREATION "created unto GOOD WORKS" and "by their fruits you shall know them"
That is the part that we all agree with.
The difference is that SDAs hold to the Bible truth that the "Atoning SACRIFICE" was completed at the cross (1John 2:2 NIV) and that the Lev 16 PROCESS OF ATONEMENT includes MORE than just a dead lamb when you actually read the text. It INCLUDES the High Priest's work that so many Christians want to ignore today as being PART of that PROCESS.
May God add His blessing to the reading AND the full ACCEPTANCE of His Word -- all of it -- not just tiny slices of it.
In Christ,
Bob
Good twist on Scripture Bob. But that is not the whole of Scripture. And that is not what it says. Here is what you have quoted me saying first:BobRyan said:
Now let's look at the Scripture, and see what it really says:
1 Corinthians 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
In all of these rhetorical questions what is the obvious answer. It is a resounding NO! We do not all have the same gifts. We do not all prophecy. We do not all have the same gifts.
Then he says go and desire the best gifts, and then says that above all these spiritual gifts I show you a better way, a better gift, and that is love.
Each one did not have a gift of prophecy in the first century. Each one had their own gift. The foot could not be the hand; neither the hand the foot. All the members of the body had to work together.
In your analogy you have one body composed entirely of feet (for example). There is one gift and everybody has the same gift. The rest of the body doesn't count. I, for one, am glad I am not part of the imaginary body that you have created.
In the local churches of the first century each one had their own gift, but not the same gift. Each one did not have the gift of prophecy. Women were not to speak in tongues or to prophecy at all. Do you not believe the Scriptures Bob.
There were other gifts available to them. There was the gift of helps, for example. Women were not to have authority over a man. They were not permitted to teach a man. But you disregard the Scriptures and relegate the Apostle Paul to that of a Chauvinist. Shame on you.
Demonstrate from Scripture that Paul was teaching that everyone, including women, had the gift of prophecy. It is an impossiblility. They didn't.
The difference is that SDAs hold to the Bible truth that the "Atoning SACRIFICE" was completed at the cross (1John 2:2 NIV) and that the Lev 16 PROCESS OF ATONEMENT includes MORE than just a dead lamb when you actually read the text. It INCLUDES the High Priest's work that so many Christians want to ignore today as being PART of that PROCESS.
John 19:30 ......."It is FINISHED" That's why the SDA are WRONG!
John 19:30 ......."It is FINISHED" That's why the SDA are WRONG!
It is instructive isn't it. It is very instructive to all who read this to see how you take a statement out of context and use it to justify your own preconceived ideas. Read the context.BobRyan said:
"Each one has a revelation." Yes, that is what was wrong. It was a rebuke. It wasn't supposed to be that way. Remember Paul had just told them that only two or three at the very most could speak in tongues and even then they had to have an interpreter. So it was, with having a revelation. The same thing applied. Not everyone could clamour for attention and make chaos in the service. They were being self-centered. They were being "show-offs," egotistical, carnal. It was a carnal church, not a spiritual one. Read 1Cor.3:1-3. Paul was rebuking them not praising them. Each one--supposedly had a revelation--but in truth it wasn't so. Some of them were faking it. Some of them were being carnal and simply striving to look "spiritual" before the others. Not everyone had the same gift. Study again the twelfth chapter. No one had all the gifts. Each one had different gifts. They had to work together, each one having their own gift. Bob, you are a very confused man. You take Scripture out of context to deceive others and to make it fit your own theology.
More Scripture taken out of context.
Paul was comparing the value of prophesying to the value of speaking in tongues in the first century local churches, especially in Corinth--when the spiritual gifts were still in operation. They are no longer in operation today.
"Especially that you may prophecy" is in contrast to "speaking in tongues" because when they spoke in tongues, it was a mystery--a mystery in the sense that no one could understand them. Prophecy was not foretelling but a forthtelling, a proclamation of the truth, such as the prophets of the Old Testament spent so much of their time doing. Prophecy was a more valuable gift Paul was saying. He was drawing a contrast between prophecy and tongues, as he does throughout the whole chapter. It is better if you take these verses in the context in which they are written instead of isolate them and take them out of context--a characteristic of a cult.
You still can't get away from the fact that Paul says that a woman must remain silent in the church. What do you do, Bob? Cut that verse out of your Bible?
You like to take Scripture out of context don't you? It is the only way you can prove a point.
We discussed Philip's daughters before. We discussed Philip before. Philip did miracles in Samaria. Can you do that? Philip, after leading the Ethiopian to the Lord and baptizing him, was carried away by the Spirit to another part of the country. Does that happen to you? So his daughters prophesied. Unusual events in unusual times. It was a time of transition in the book of Acts. The book of Acts is a book of history--not a book of doctrine. The fact that those daughters prophesied was a fulfillment of the prophesy given in Joel as Peter pointed out on the Day of Pentecost.
Your OT examples are frivilous and have nothing to do with this day and age.
The time of the Book of Judges were unusual times. How many people like Samson do we see today? Fair is fair Bob. If Deborah, why not Samson, or Shamgar, or Gideon, or the others. The fact is that we don't. They were unusual men chosen for unusual tasks in unusual times. It is ridiculous for you to take these people and put them in today's context, a context of this day and age of grace. You don't understand very well the concept of "rightly dividng the word of truth," do you?
I think he does.Claudia_T said:
The atoning work of Christ was finished at the cross.
The most important work concerning the atoning work of Christ is found in John 19:30--It is finished!.
I have said that before; so I say it again. It cannot be ignored. Jesus finished his work on the cross. He said he did. Don't make a liar out of him.