More Seventh-Day Adventists

[Claudia_T]

The reason the SDA church has this theology about Christ atoning in heaven is because of the failed prophecies by Ellen White and Miller that Jesus would return to earth in 1844. When it didn't happen, the "prophecy" changed to a teaching that Jesus entered the 2nd apt. of the sanctuary of heaven for the investigative judgment and final atonement to begin for cleansing of sins. This makes a liar out of Christ, who said "It is finished" on the cross and who is pictured as seated in heaven.

Atonement was at the cross. It is finished. Jesus is not atoning anymore. He died "once for all" - paid the penalty for death.

No actually, it was more like this...

The Adventists knew about the time prophecies of the cleansing of the sanctuary in the Bible, it was something God was just then revealing to His people because the time of the prophecy was about to actually begin. But the people were destined to disappointment. The time of expectation of the second coming of Christ passed, and Jesus did not appear. They looked forward to His coming, but were disappoited like Mary when, coming to the Saviour's tomb and finding it empty, she said, crying: "They have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid Him." John 20:13.

The disciples were accomplishing the purpose of God; but at the same time they were destined to a bitter disappointment. Jesus had been laid in the tomb. Their expectations had not been fulfilled and their hopes died with Jesus.

But when Jesus came forth from the grave they understood all that had been previously foretold by prophecy, and "that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead." Acts 17:3.

Zechariah the prophet had said 500 years ago: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: He is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." Zechariah 9:9.

If the disciples had realized that Christ was going to judgment and to death, they could not have fulfilled that very prophecy.

Well in that same way William Miller and his friends fulfilled prophecy and gave a message which the Scriptures had foretold would be given to the world, but at the same time, they could not have given the message had they fully understood the prophecies pointing out their disappointment, and presenting another message to be preached to all nations before the Lord should come.

There were the and second angel's messages and they were given at just the right time and they accomplished the very work which God wanted to be accomplish by them.

The Apostle Paul said: "Cast not away therefore your confidence;" "ye have need of patience," "for yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry."

And so the Adventists cherished the light which they had already gotten from of God, and continued to search the Scriptures, and they waited patiently to receive further light.

The entire rest of the Christian world, believed, along with the Adventists, that the earth, or some part of it, was the sanctuary.

They thought that the cleansing of the sanctuary was the purification of the earth by the fires of the last day, and that this would occur at the second coming of Christ. And thus the conclusion that Christ would return to the earth in 1844.

But the time they expected Jesus to come had passed, and the Lord had not appeared.

The Adventists knew that God's word could not fail; and so they began to realize that their interpretation of the prophecy must be at fault; but they continued on studying the Scriptures and praying till they were shown what the cleansing of the sanctuary really actually meant. They studied the work of the high priest in the sanctuary and began to understand that the cleansing of the sanctuary had to do with the work of the JUDGEMENT and applying the atoning blood of Christ... the time of Judgment was foretold also in Revelation chapter 14:6 and 7: "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

The things about the High priest in the book of Hebrews and so forth began opening up to their minds... and they began to understand better what it was God was telling them...

And THAT is what actually happened. The whole thing is really not much different than when God's people in the time of Christ didnt understand the prophecies yet. But that didnt mean they weren't His people. It just was not TIME to understand them yet. Things had to yet be revealed to them and they were PART of the prophesies themselves.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

When Christ died, there was a miracle that signified that the priestly work of the earthly sanctuary was finished
"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent." Matthew 27:50,51.

But before anybody is raised at Christ's coming, a decision has to be rendered in their cases.
"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:" Luke 20:35.

The Judgment begins with the righteous.
"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

Out of the books, they be judged
"A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:10.

When the earthly high priest came out of the sanctuary after making the atonement, he transferred the sins of the people from himself to the goat
"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:" Leviticus 16:21.

Simple justice demands that while Christ suffers for my guilt, Satan must also be punished as the instigator of sin.

That is why, on the Day of Atonement, two goats were necessary. One was "for the Lord" (Lev. 16:7) to provide the atonement through the shedding of his blood; the other was "for Azazel" (Lev. 16:8). These two were, in the text, placed in antithesis. One typified our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who was slain as our substitute and vicariously bore our sins, with all the guilt and punishment entailed. Thus He made complete atonement for our sins. The other goat, we believe, stood for Satan, who is eventually to have rolled back upon his own head, not only his own sins, but the responsibility for all the sins he has caused others to commit.

Now two vital points involved are to be particularly noted: (1) that the transaction with the live goat (or Azazel) took place after the atonement for the sins of the people had been accomplished, and the reconciliation completed; and (2) that the live goat was not slain, and did not provide any propitiation or make any vicarious atonement. And without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb. 9:22). None of the blood of the live goat was shed, or poured out in propitiation, and none was taken into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the Lord, or placed on the horns of the altar.

Satan makes no atonement for our sins. But Satan will ultimately have to bear the retributive punishment for his responsibility in the sins of all men, both righteous and wicked.

How will it be when Christ has truly finished the atonement for his people?
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Hebrews 9:28.


And so we can see that some things have to happen before the work is actually finished.

The Judgement has to happen to see who is accounted worthy...

The Goat, Satan has to pay the penalty for having caused all the sin in the first place.


This has absolutely NOTHING to do with this idea people keep trying so hard to pin on Seventh Day Adventists, acting like we are saying that the actual atonement for our sins wasnt finished at the Cross.

That isnt what we teach AT ALL. It seems like people think that if they just keep SAYING IT long enough, others will actually believe that about our Church.

Personally, I think it is not good tactics at all. And the same thing goes with this idea that the Adventists just had some sort of failed prophecy so they changed it to make it fit and to save face. These things are just FALSE.


Claudia

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Concerning the atoning work of Christ, the most significant words in the Bible are found in John 19:30,
It is finished!

GE:
I FULLY agree with you, DHK, but, just as with blood-sacrifices, "the life that (was) in the blood", had to be "OFFERD before the LORD", Jesus Christ, offered His LIFE (that was obtained through His blood), before the LORD in and through and with resurrection from the dead - and THEN only we "in Him" and "with Him" had been resurrected unto righteousness once for all.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CT:
"The Judgement has to happen to see who is accounted worthy... "

GE:
Stop! Think! Is this 'the Judgment'? Is this its purpose?

The first attribute of Jog's judgment is that it is not hid under a buschel, but ALWAYS acts out in the open: First Jesus came for a JUDGMENT into this world once for all to determine who is accounted worhty; Second, He shall APPEAR the final judgement of the wicked - of those THEN already accounted not worthy.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CT:
"Out of the books, they be judged
"A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:10."

GE:
THE BOOK is Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CT:
"But before anybody is raised at Christ's coming, a decision has to be rendered in their cases.
"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead"

GE:
But before anybody is raised at Christ's coming, he had to be raised with Christ, through Him, and in Him. "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, AND THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD .... I AM : THE RESURRECTION" -- Jesus Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If we received Christ (through faith by grace) we have received the resurrection; we shall not enter into the judgement at the last day; only with our eyes shall we see the recompense of the wicked. (Ps91) We shall not see it anytime elsewhere (as from 1844 until who knows when); we shall not see it during any thousand years after Christ would have come. We shall witness the justness of God's judgement when it occurs to us -- either in Jesus at His first coming, or before Jesus at His second coming.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

SDAs CONFUSE Christ's INTERCESSION He now is DOING for the Elect, for His ATONEMENT He through dying and rising HAD DONE for the Elect.

They CONFUSE, SAVING GRACE, WITH, 'general grace'; and they CONFUSE, 'general grace', FOR, SAVING GRACE.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Like all Arminians do --- there's nothing so 'peculiar' about them.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CT:
"That is why, on the Day of Atonement, two goats were necessary. One was "for the Lord" (Lev. 16:7) to provide the atonement through the shedding of his blood; the other was "for Azazel" (Lev. 16:8). These two were, in the text, placed in antithesis."

GE:
On the Day of Atonement, two goats were necessary .... to make atonement with. The first was "for the Lord" (Lev. 16:7) to provide the atonement through the shedding of his blood; the second was "for escape" .... to symbolise life (Lev. 16:8). These two were, in the text, placed in antithesis.

 

[Eliyahu]

I have had no time to read thru the thread, but it seems that SDA has some fundamental problem with the Belief on Redemption, which may jeopardize even the Belief on Salvation.
Remember the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ was ONCE FOR ALL, and Jesus cried " IT IS FINISHED"
If you don't believe it, you may be asking God to send Jesus again so that He may be killed again.

There was nothing left unforgiven, at the Cross.
IT IS FINISHED !
this is why Jesus (and what He did) is so precious

 

[Claudia_T]

I have had no time to read thru the thread, but it seems that SDA has some fundamental problem with the Belief on Redemption, which may jeopardize even the Belief on Salvation.
Remember the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ was ONCE FOR ALL, and Jesus cried " IT IS FINISHED"
If you don't believe it, you may be asking God to send Jesus again so that He may be killed again.

There was nothing left unforgiven, at the Cross.
IT IS FINISHED !
this is why Jesus (and what He did) is so precious

yeah you definitely need to go read through everything

 

[DHK]

No actually, it was more like this...

The Adventists knew about the time prophecies of the cleansing of the sanctuary in the Bible, it was something God was just then revealing to His people because the time of the prophecy was about to actually begin. But the people were destined to disappointment. The time of expectation of the second coming of Christ passed, and Jesus did not appear. They looked forward to His coming, but were disappoited like Mary when, coming to the Saviour's tomb and finding it empty, she said, crying: "They have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid Him." John 20:13.
Claudia

And from a false prophet who claims she knows what is going on up in heaven (because her own prophecy failed) you actually believe this charlatan. This is truly amazing! How can a person be suckered into one claiming to know what events are happening in heaven when she has never been there? How can an entire group beleive such a charlatan, a woman who is commanded to be silent in the church and not have authority or even to teach a man. Truly amazing!

 

[Shiloh]

And from a false prophet who claims she knows what is going on up in heaven (because her own prophecy failed) you actually believe this charlatan. This is truly amazing! How can a person be suckered into one claiming to know what events are happening in heaven when she has never been there? How can an entire group beleive such a charlatan, a woman who is commanded to be silent in the church and not have authority or even to teach a man. Truly amazing! by DHK


(<: 100% :<)

 

[Claudia_T]

DHK,

I have to say that your ideas about Ellen White, I would expect but your ideas about women I would not have.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I have to say that your ideas about Ellen White, I would expect but your ideas about women I would not have.

Of course. You are a woman and reject all Scripture that teaches about the Scriptural role of women in the church or in relation to spiritual things. That is obvious.
Let's look at Scripture.

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

In case you don't understand the KJV, here it is in the WEB
1 Timothy 2:12 But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.
--But you don't believe this do you?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

It is a shame for women to speak in the church. But you don't believe in the Word. You ignore it. You would rather take your place as a teacher of spiritual things on BB, where you can have your outlet as a supposed teacher. It is unscriptural, but there you have it.

I went to Bible College. We had a lady who taught literature (a secular course), but there was not one female that was permitted to teach any Biblical course. The reason was obvious. A woman was not to have authority over a man or to teach a man. That Bible College held to a Biblical standard.

 

[Shiloh]

DHK, How does she know to keep quiet? She is in a cult that was started by a woman. A woman that even this girl here doesn't respect!

 

[tragic_pizza]

I thought a Baptist layman started the SDA.

 

[Claudia_T]

Of course. You are a woman and reject all Scripture that teaches about the Scriptural role of women in the church or in relation to spiritual things. That is obvious.
Let's look at Scripture.

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

In case you don't understand the KJV, here it is in the WEB
1 Timothy 2:12 But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.
--But you don't believe this do you?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

It is a shame for women to speak in the church. But you don't believe in the Word. You ignore it. You would rather take your place as a teacher of spiritual things on BB, where you can have your outlet as a supposed teacher. It is unscriptural, but there you have it.

I went to Bible College. We had a lady who taught literature (a secular course), but there was not one female that was permitted to teach any Biblical course. The reason was obvious. A woman was not to have authority over a man or to teach a man. That Bible College held to a Biblical standard.

DHK

Other women are permitted to speak on this Board and give their opinions, why not me?

I certainly do pay attention actually to that part of scripture but honestly I am not completely sure how to take it. I dont believe its a "cultural" thing like alot of people claim. I am not entirely sure yet about the idea that it just applies to women in church.

But regardless, I also view the role of prophet as something different than that because the Bible gives cases of women prophets, like Deborah and others, right?

But if I remember right, you dont view the gift of prophecy as being still in need in our day.

As far as the women speaking in church goes, (back to that again) I so far at least, view that as women not being Pastors.

I think that women as well as men can have the Holy Spirit and thus they can know what the scriptures teach just as well as any man can.

But I also believe that women shouldnt be Pastors because there are always non-believers purposely trying to deceive that these Pastors have to be around and I think that Satan would try extra hard to deceive the Pastor because then through him, he could deceive the entire congregation. I bring that Bible verse in when it comes to this part, that says Eve was the one deceived. I view women as being more emotionally inclined than men are and thus more easy to deceive if someone is there right with them trying to lead them astray... like when the devil tempted Eve, he reasoned with her trying to deceive her about God.

I think a woman can write articles, books, and so on, about Religion just as well as anyone else. How could she even teach her own children if she were intellectually or spiritually inferior as a teacher? How could she be able to teach them about the scriptures? She has access to the Holy Spirit and to God.

If a woman doesnt have the same access to God isnt that kind of like the view of the Catholics like they think they have to have a priest interpret things for them? I hadnt ever thought of that till now but what do you think of that?

Claudia

 

[Shiloh]

I thought a Baptist layman started the SDA. by pizza
Man you ain't been right bout nuthin, [offensive language deleted]