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More Seventh-Day Adventists

tragic_pizza

New Member
Shiloh said:
I thought a Baptist layman started the SDA. by pizza
Man you ain't been right bout nuthin, what a dork!
Aren't you sweet.

And I was, it seems, mistaken. Miller started the JW's, not the SDA's. My mistake.

By the way, is it OK by BB policy to call someone a term for an animal's genitals?
 
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Claudia_T

New Member
tragic_pizza said:
I thought a Baptist layman started the SDA.

I was starting a little further along in the history of the SDA Church...

But a Baptist had to do with the Sabbath part of it.. You should ask Bob Ryan he knows more about that part of it than I do.


Claudia
 

tragic_pizza

New Member
Claudia_T said:
I was starting a little further along in the history of the SDA Church...

But a Baptist had to do with the Sabbath part of it.. You should ask Bob Ryan he knows more about that part of it than I do.


Claudia
I get my Millers and Campbells mixed up, I think.
 

Claudia_T

New Member
tragic_pizza said:
Aren't you sweet.

And I was, it seems, mistaken. Miller started the JW's, not the SDA's. My mistake.

By the way, is it OK by BB policy to call someone a term for an animal's genitals?


Tragic,

I think maybe Shiloh is trying to flirt with us both but thats okay, we could handle it...

Just kidding of course... but she/he kept calling me "honey" the other day.


Claudia
 

tragic_pizza

New Member
Claudia_T said:
Tragic,

I think maybe Shiloh is trying to flirt with us both but thats okay, we could handle it...

Just kidding of course... but she/he kept calling me "honey" the other day.


Claudia
Hm. Well, one way or another, considering that you and I are opposite genders, Shiloh's committing a pretty big sin in the Baptist church...
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
tragic_pizza said:
I thought a Baptist layman started the SDA.
You are right Tragic. It was.
William Miller was a Baptist who predicted that Christ would come in 1843-44. He was caught up in what was called the "Adventist" Movement, a movement so called because there were many at that time eagerly waiting for the Second Advent. Because of Miller's prophecy, those that followed him were called Millerites. When his prophecy failed, Miller repented of setting dates and didn't do it anymore. But Ellen G. White determined that Christ did come in 1843; we just didn't see him.
It happened in heaven. She also had a dream of the Sabbath. And so began the Seventh Day Adventists. It, in a way did begin with Miller, as White was a devoted follower of him. But Miller stopped setting dates. He was a good Bible teacher. He went back to expository teaching of the Bible. Ellen G. White began her own following stemming from dreams and visions and false prophecies.
 

tragic_pizza

New Member
That's what I thought I had heard, DHK.

Well, considering that the Worldwide Church of God came from questionable beginnings to be a good, if really, really Fundie church, that doesn't necessarily disqualiy SDA's.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
tragic_pizza said:
And I was, it seems, mistaken. Miller started the JW's, not the SDA's. My mistake.

By the way, is it OK by BB policy to call someone a term for an animal's genitals?

I am not sure that Shiloh has met a person for whom he did not have some venom.

But that aside - Miller never became a Seventh-day Adventist - but he did belong to that informal group called "Millerites" in the press. I just don't know that the group that became the JW's followed him after 1844.

In Christ,

Bob
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
Also, it is true that the JW's (Russell) ultimately came from the Millerites, though a more distant branch of it that continued well after Miller himself.

And since when is "dork" an animal's genitals? That was a fabricated word, that according to Wikipedia, may have been influenced by "jerk". Still; I have noted that it is a very good counterpart to the "raca" Jesus warned about, so it was over the top.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
DHK said:
You are right Tragic. It was.
William Miller was a Baptist who predicted that Christ would come in 1843-44. He was caught up in what was called the "Adventist" Movement, a movement so called because there were many at that time eagerly waiting for the Second Advent.

Miller was primarily responsible for reviving the concept of the Advent as a premillennial event. Most of his contemporaries were not premill on the second coming. In fact Walter Martin states that Miller's views drew the most negative press by the fact that they were distinctively pre-mill in an a-millennial or post-millennial world.

Because of Miller's prophecy, those that followed him were called Millerites. When his prophecy failed, Miller repented of setting dates and didn't do it anymore. But Ellen G. White determined that Christ did come in 1843; we just didn't see him.

A little less story telling and a bit more historic fact.

Ellen Harmon (a teenage girl at the time) followed Miller's teachings and had no visions or doctrines about Miller's views until after the event passed. She was not the one that announced the solution to the problem being found in the High Priestly Work of Christ described in Lev 16 and Heb 8 but when it was preached - she did accept that point.

The Sabbath was introduced to Adventists by Rachael Oaks a Seventh-day Baptist - Ellen White accepted this Bible truth some time later and when she did she had "no following".

DHK and facts -- sometimes close sometimes distant aquaintances

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Eric B said:
Also, it is true that the JW's (Russell) ultimately came from the Millerites, though a more distant branch of it that continued well after Miller himself.

I think that is correct
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
BobRyan said:
A little less story telling and a bit more historic fact.
Bob
-Day Adventism originated in the well-known movement of William Miller, who set the time for the end of the world in 1843-44. They claim now that Mr. Miller’s move was right, and in the providence of God. They claim to be simply carrying on the same work which he began. In all their books and sermons they point to 1844 as their origin, and endorse the work of the Millerites in 1843 and 1844. The following from Mrs. White will settle the point:
"I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as he wanted them; that his hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures." Early Writings, p. 64.
God helped them make the mistake!
"I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843." Spiritual Gifts, Vol. I., p. 133.
So God had wanted them to set that time!
"I saw that they were correct in their reckoning of the prophetic periods; prophetic time closed in 1844." p. 107.
Again:
"The Advent movement of 1840-44 was a glorious manifestation of the power of God." Great Controversy, Vol. IV., p. 429.
Elder White says:
"We hold that the great movement upon the Second Advent question, which commenced with the writings and public lectures of William Miller, has been, in its leading features, in fulfillment of prophecy. Consistently with this view, we also hold that in the providence of God, Mr. Miller was raised up to do a specific work." Life of Miller, p. 6.
So it will be seen that Seventh-Day Adventists still believe in and defend the Millerite movements of 1843 and 1844. Indeed, the claim that all other churches who did not accept and endorse Miller’s work were rejected of God on this account. Thus Mrs. White: "As the churches refused to receive the first angel’s message [Miller’s work], they rejected the light from heaven and fell from the favor of God." Early Writings, p. 101.
Here, then, we have the origin of Seventh-Day Adventism, the fountain from which it flowed. As a stream will be like its fountain, let us examine it. Elder and Mrs. White, Elders Bates, Andrews, Rhodes, Holt, Edson, and all the founders of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church were in the movement of Miller, and helped in setting and preaching the time in 1843, 1844, and carried the Advent work right on afterwards. (FundamentalBaptistLibrary2000/WWW/qindex.htm)

These are historical facts.



 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
You are posting "historic" facts that occur AFTER 1844 and using them to prop up your earlier claims about how the Adventists came about at the start.

Try again.

Ellen Harmon (a teenage girl at the time) followed Miller's teachings and had no visions or doctrines about Miller's views until after the event passed. She was not the one that announced the solution to the problem being found in the High Priestly Work of Christ described in Lev 16 and Heb 8 but when it was preached - she did accept that point.

The Sabbath was introduced to Adventists by Rachael Oaks a Seventh-day Baptist - Ellen White accepted this Bible truth some time later and when she did she had "no following".

Eventually Ellen Harmon did get married and become Ellen White. Eventually she had visions and eventually she accepted the Sabbath truth first proclaimed by Rachael Oaks to some select Sunday keeping Adventists and eventually presented by Adventists to Ellen White.

Eventually Ellen White also had visions on the subject of Christ the Creator's Sabbath.

But you can't simply mush all these historic events together and then spin out a story of your own liking as if making stuff up is a valid stubstitute for a reliable account of historic fact.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Snitzelhoff

New Member
BobRyan said:
I think Campbell had something to do with the start of the JWs

Campbell had more to do with the "Churches of Christ". Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone began the Restoration movement, out of which several branches have emerged: the "Churches of Christ," both instrumental and non-instrumental, the "Disciples of Christ", and a few others.

As to women prophesying, I'd have to say the SDAs have it here (and I am not SDA and don't agree with quite a few of their doctrines). But Scripture sides with Bob and Claudia on this one, for the following reasons:

1. There is no Scriptural evidence that the "Charismatic" gifts died out after the Apostolic period. That is, cessionism is Biblically untenable. A cursory glance at the end of I Corinthians 13 will easily put to rest the assertion that "that which is perfect" is the completed Canon, and the idea that any prophecy given must become canonized as Scripture is itself unscriptural. Paul said that many in the Corinthian church had the gift of prophecy, which means that they were giving legitimate prophecies, but those prophecies have not been preserved for us in the pages of Scripture because they are not part of our rule of faith. It would be the same for prophecies given today.

2. There is Scriptural evidence that women were allowed to prophesy in church. I Corinthians 11:5 allows for women to prophesy. Paul makes the statement as though that were just what happened, and does not speak against it.

3. Those passages that do speak to women's silence speak concerning their lack of authority over men in the churches. If we leave the context of the church, then no woman should ever teach a male, even in "secular courses" in college. Technically, DHK, she was your authority in that class, a class that, although it had secular applications, was designed and included in order to further your Biblical education. Your college applied its own rule inconsistantly. Unless you're going to argue that there were no Biblical principles taught whatsoever in that class.

Michael
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
BobRyan said:
You are posting "historic" facts that occur AFTER 1844 and using them to prop up your earlier claims about how the Adventists came about at the start.
Bob
You're right. I post historic facts that happened just after 1844. Most of them are from Ellen G. White herself. They are factual. Did not White have a dream of the Ten Commandments and the fourth commandment (the one about the Sabbath) was glowing brighter than all the others? To her that was a sign of the importance of the Sabbath in this day and age. God had supposedly confirmed it to her. You would say God; I would say a demon. Her visions and dreams did not originate from God from another source. Likewise her theology. In blunt terms the Bible uses the words "damnable heresy" to describe it.

However, from the same encyclopediac source that I quoted from before I will give you this summary which should be more satisfactory for you.
Seventh-day Adventism originated with the disappointed Second Coming movement of the 1800’s. William Miller, a Baptist layman, concluded in 1818 that Christ would return to earth in 1843. When that was proven wrong, he changed the date to October 1844. This belief was based largely on an interpretation of Daniel chapters nine and twelve using the erroneous day/year prophetic equation (one prophetic day equals one historical year). Tens of thousands followed Miller’s conclusions, and many diverse, unscriptural adventist (advent refers to Christ’s coming) groups sprang up within this excited religious atmosphere. Until the end of 1844, Miller held resolutely to his conviction that Christ would return to the earth to "cleanse the sanctuary," which he interpreted to mean the earth. After the set dates passed, Miller wisely left off with date setting, admitted his mistake, and no longer participated in the adventist movement. He did not become a Seventh-day Adventist.
From the shambles of the confused and unscriptural date-setting movement, there emerged various groups with differing doctrinal peculiarities. Some of these groups gradually were formed into Seventh-day Adventism. The following history from Seventh-day Adventist publications contains the major factors in this formation.
1. A group of Advent followers in New Hampshire began Sabbath-keeping in 1844, and began to publish their views through pamphlets. Among these were Joseph Bates and James White, who later became Ellen G. White’s husband.
2. Some of these Sabbath-keepers accepted the visions of Hazen Foss and Ellen Harmon in relation to the "Investigative Judgment" doctrine and the end-time "Third Angel’s Message" of Revelation 14:9-12. The doctrine of investigative judgment, as taught by the SDA Church, claims that in 1844 Christ entered into the heavenly holy of holies to begin investigating the records of human works. It is supposed that this investigation will decide the eternal destinies of all men. The "Third Angel’s Message," which is a warning against taking the mark of the beast and which speaks of "they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Re. 14:9,12), was erroneously taken by the Adventists to refer to themselves, since they uphold the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath. A SDA publication relates these events:
Near the time of the expected advent in the fall of 1844, there was also given to Hazen Foss, a young Adventist of talent, a revelation of the experience of the advent people. Shortly after the passing of the time, he was bidden to relate the vision to others, but this be disinclined to do. He was warned of God as to the consequences of failing to relate to others what had been revealed to him, and was told that if he refused, the light would be given to someone else. But he felt keenly the disappointment of 1844, and ‘said that he had been deceived.’ After a severe mental conflict, he ‘decided he would not relate the visions.’ Then, ‘very strange feelings came to him, and a voice said, ‘You have grieved away the Spirit of the Lord’ (E.G. White Letter No. 37, 1890).
‘Horrified at his stubbornness and rebellion,’ he ‘told the Lord that he would relate the vision,’ but when he attempted to do so before a company of believers, he could not call it to mind. In vain were his attempts to call up the scenes as they had been shown to him; and then in deep despair he exclaimed, ‘It is gone from me; I can say nothing, and the Spirit of the Lord has left me.’ Eyewitnesses described it as ‘the most terrible meeting they were ever in.’
Early in 1845, Foss overheard Ellen Harmon relate her first vision to the company of believers at Portland, Maine. He recognized her account as a description of what was shown him. Upon meeting her the next morning, he recounted his experience, of which she had not before known, and encouraged her to faithfully perform her work, stating: ‘I believe the visions are taken from me and given to you. Do not refuse to obey God, for it will be at the peril of your soul. I am a lost man. You are chosen of God; be faithful in doing your work, and the crown I might have had, you will receive.’ On comparing dates, they discovered that it was not until after he had been told that the visions were taken from him, that Ellen Harmon was given her first revelation. Although Hazen Foss lived till 1893, he never again manifested interest in matters religious (Arthur L. White, Ellen G. White—Messenger to the Remnant, revised to 1969, p. 30).
"...in the year 1844 ... there was a group of Advent believers among whom was manifested the gift of prophecy. The agent of this gift [Ellen Harmon] was called to service in 1844. Later those associated with this gift came in contact with the Bible teaching already referred to—the truths of the Sabbath and of the heavenly sanctuary and the judgment hour. Thus was formed the nucleus of the definite Advent Movement of the prophecy. We see the various special factors all having their roots in 1844. And from that day to this, the people of the prophecy have been hastening on toward all nations with the gospel message of preparation to meet the Lord" (Gift of Prophecy, p. 13). (FundamentalBaptistLibrary2000/WWW/qindex.htm)



 

Claudia_T

New Member
DHK said:
Did not White have a dream of the Ten Commandments and the fourth commandment (the one about the Sabbath) was glowing brighter than all the others? To her that was a sign of the importance of the Sabbath in this day and age. God had supposedly confirmed it to her. You would say God; I would say a demon. Her visions and dreams did not originate from God from another source. Likewise her theology. In blunt terms the Bible uses the words "damnable heresy" to describe it.
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Rv:11:19: And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Revelation 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Exodus 20:
8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
 
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