More Seventh-Day Adventists

[Ed Edwards]

More Seventh-Day Adventists

The other Seventh-Day Adventists thread got up to 33 pages
and had to be shut down. But there are those Baptists who
would like to learn more about who the SDA are and what
they believe. But Ed's ground rules first:

-------------------------------
The nature of prejudice is the bait and switch technique.
Here is an example of that twisted logic.

Bait. The SDA is a Cult (doesn't agree with my religion)
switch. by definition 'cult' is a control freak and some follower freaks
- cults are evil
- The SDA is evil
- we are justified vilifying the SDA and people who are SDA

But however you justify your prejudice about the SDA,
prejudice is evil.
-------------------------------

Calling the SDA a 'cult' is evil.
The SDA are a legitimate Protestant religion.
Any other conclusion is evil against our Brothers & Sisters
in Christ.

I looked all the way through the Bible and never found
no justification for "being non-Baptist is a sin". :jesus:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Consider the myth that "the Sabbath command that was
changed by the Catholic Church to Sunday"
(this is only one of many arguments for Sabboth observance
on Saturday, sunset to sunset).
The change to Sunday happened before there was
a Roman Catholic Church (RCC). I date the RCC from
the split with the Metropolitan Sees of the Orthodox Church
in 1054. The Sunday observation of 'the Lord's Day' was
present in all 4 of the major Branches of Christianity
in 1054:

1. The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) run by the Bishop of Rome
2. The Orthodox Church run by the Metropolitan Sees
3. The East Syrian Church (the largest membership of the four branches
streching from India to Russia, from Syria to China).
4. The Cyptic Church HQed in Egypt

 

[Dustin]

Thanks Mr. Edwards, I was gonna start another thread but I forgot about it.

Ok my question was what of the professing Christian (not a seventh day adventist) who doesn't observe a Saturday Sabbath?

Let me go ahead and note that I've already read up on the subject, but I wanted to hear what a SDA has to say, since I've only heard the argument from a non-Saturday view. Also worth mentioning, I don't consider Ellen White to be prophetess, I hold to reformed theology, I'm a five point Calvinist, so my opinion of the SDA church's orthodoxy (or lack thereof) is not applicable here. Just by holding to that theology, I'm already pratically against it. I simply want to know the answer to the question above, from the view of a seventh day adventist.

Thanks,
Dustin

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Steaver: Q1, Yes, God quickens your spirit and gives you a new life(saved), THEN you truly love God.

Q2, No, however it does come naturally from the regeneration. Some quickly and some slowly.

Q3, Love thy neighbor as thyself.

See, it isn't hard to answer "yes" or "no"!

HP: So it is really not you that is to love God, but God that loves God and that love is forced upon you apart from your will, right?

Steaver:
Can you tell me why "yes" or "no" is too difficult to answer Bob?

HP: Ask a fair question and get a fair answer.

Steaver:
You have to understand regeneration. One cannot love God apart from regeneration. Spirit living with spirit produces true love towards God.

GE:
What about that text that says that God loved us while were haters of God and strangers to the Covenant of Grace?

 

[Claudia_T]

I think all of you should just go to one of those websites that are against the SDA Church and look up the answers.

Because I sure dont feel like going through all of this again and people believe whatever they want to anyway. You all should just go ahead and let us know what you think we believe. Then leave it at that.

When I try to say what we believe its like "oh no, SDAs believe THIS"... so you may as well just go ahead and talk amongst yourselves and let everyone know what it is that we believe. Maybe I can become educated about it.

 

[Claudia_T]

Just as steaver what SDAs believe, he'll let you know.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

EEdwards:
Consider the myth that "the Sabbath command that was
changed by the Catholic Church to Sunday"
(this is only one of many arguments for Sabboth observance
on Saturday, sunset to sunset).

GE:
You insert your own myth:". . . . the Sabbath command was
changed by the Catholic Church to Sunday" : ". . . . this is only one of many arguments for Sabboth observance on Saturday, sunset to sunset".
I don't know of any SDA or nonSDA Sabbath-observer who has as his reason or 'argument for Sabbath observance on Saturday', that "the Sabbath command was changed by the Catholic Church to Sunday".

Yes, some may regard Sabbath-keeping 'on Saturday' for rebellion against the rest of Christianity, but won't ever acknowledge the Protestant-quality (against the idolary of Roman Catholicism) of such practice.

As for me and some who do in fact think the same as I (or I as they), we do NOT believe and enjoy God's blessed Day in Jesus Christ because of anything but, that Blessing, that Sanctification, that Finishing, and that Rest and Reviving of the LORD your God on the Seventh Day in Christ, through Christ, by Christ, and for Christ. That's no myth, but reality according to the Scriptures like NO 'Sabbath-observer-on-Sunday' could dream of!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

'Sabbath-observance on Sunday is a myth, a contradiction in terms, a falacy, and, it is - eventually - nothing but Roman Catholic idolatry and the service of anti-christ; fearless rebellion, against the great host of witness God had given His Church on the Sabbath of HIS -not ours- but HIS, Rest, which is Christ plainly.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks Mr. Edwards, I was gonna start another thread but I forgot about it.

Ok my question was what of the professing Christian (not a seventh day adventist) who doesn't observe a Saturday Sabbath?

The SDA position is that there are saved saints within the Catholic Church and within the other Christian denominations that do not keep Sabbath.

However that does not mean that we think it is "right" to worship idols in church or to ignore Christ the Creator's Holy Day.

. Also worth mentioning, I don't consider Ellen White to be prophetess

SDAs hold to the concept of "The Bible tests of a prophet" the first and foremost being that any message the prophet gives that is claimed to be from God has to be doctrinally sound since God Himself can not be in error. Therefore a sola-scriptura "test" of that message is required to "see IF those things are so".

In the case of a JW or a Presbyterian who considers their own church to be doctrinally correct - Biblically sound - we would say that such a person would have to "notice" that Ellen White did speak on topics where we have doctrinal differences with those those groups and would have to reject Ellen White as a prophet.

, I hold to reformed theology, I'm a five point Calvinist, so my opinion of the SDA church's orthodoxy (or lack thereof) is not applicable here. Just by holding to that theology, I'm already pratically against it.

SDAa are arminian and reject OSAS. But we do not say that Calvinists and others who embrace OSAS are not saved.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Consider the myth that "the Sabbath command that was
changed by the Catholic Church to Sunday"
(this is only one of many arguments for Sabboth observance
on Saturday, sunset to sunset).
The change to Sunday happened before there was
a Roman Catholic Church (RCC). I date the RCC from
the split with the Metropolitan Sees of the Orthodox Church
in 1054. The Sunday observation of 'the Lord's Day' was
present in all 4 of the major Branches of Christianity
in 1054:

SDAs agree that Sunday observance was well established within Catholicism by 1054. But we date the rise of the RCC in a formal persecuting sense from 538 when the little horn of the Papacy finally caused the 3rd horn from the Pagan Roman split empire to fall as is stated in Daniel 7.

When The Bishop of Rome is "handed the city of Rome" as Constantine moves the capital to Constantinople - the RCC begins its formal acendancy - even by Roman Catholic historian standards. This takes us back to the 4th century AD - a time when the "venerable day of the sun" was being formally introduced to Christianity as the new Christian Sabbath.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

More Seventh-Day Adventists

The other Seventh-Day Adventists thread got up to 33 pages
and had to be shut down. But there are those Baptists who
would like to learn more about who the SDA are and what
they believe. But Ed's ground rules first:

-------------------------------
The nature of prejudice is the bait and switch technique.
Here is an example of that twisted logic.

(Option - 1)
...

----------------------------------------
Option - 2

Calling the SDA a 'cult' is evil.
The SDA are a legitimate Protestant religion.
Any other conclusion is evil against our Brothers & Sisters
in Christ.

I looked all the way through the Bible and never found
no justification for "being non-Baptist is a sin". :jesus:

This is a good point. In fact the Seventh-day Adventists start off as "Sunday keeping Adventists" until they come into a Bible study situation with a Seventh-day Baptist who points out that the Adventist acceptance of the Ten Commandments as "valid" should have lead them to accept Christ the Creator's Holy day instead of rejecting it.

SDAs are trinitarian, use the Bible as the sole source for doctrine and believe in full water Baptism. So in many respects are similar to Seventh-day Baptists.

But we also teach the continuation of 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts and we are Arminian -- rejecting OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

I wonder about the SDA attackers.
What did they do about Roman Catholic?
Idol worship, goddess worship is OK to them?
Why were they quiet about such pagan heresy?
Then, do they attack the people if they keep the Law?
Do we have to ignore "thou shalt not kill" and " thou shalt not commit adultry" in order to become Orthodox?
Which one of Mosaic Law should be ignored in order to become the Orthodox?
However, if anyone preaches that one can be saved by keeping the Law, then she or he is absolutely wrong.
One cannot be saved by keeping the Law.
One cannot be sanctified by keeping the Law either.
However, the saved person, the sanctified person do not ignore the Law but keep the Law in the Awe of Presence of God in the daily life.
If we follow the Law of Holy Spirit, we will do more than keeping the Law. Therefore keeping the Law cannot be a problem.
If anyone keeps the Law, is she or he heretic?
If anyone ignore the Law, is she or he an Orthodox?
Ah, Ha! that's why there are so many adulterous pastors who commit the adultery so often and excuse their behaviors in tricky way all the time!
There are so many, many, many adulterous pastors and priests in the so-called Orthodox churches who condemn SDA as heretic. Their conscience may be accusing them more if they try to keep the Law. Not only the pastors, but also the so-called( there is no distinction of laymen and clergy) lay people commit adultery in their daily life, doing divorce, abortion etc. To them, keeping the Law is a big problem because their conscience accuse them.
If you see the problem with legalism in SDA, you must find the problems with Roman Catholic first, because that's how you must cast out the beams in your eyes, then you will see the motes or dust in your brother's eyes. God sees a lot of problems in your life!
You must humble yourself first even though you may not keep the Law.
You must say what is right is right even though you may not keep the Law. Be honest!

 

[Claudia_T]

Eliyahu,

Excellent Post!
I agree with everything you said there.

I used to feel the same way they do about the commandments till one day I was reading the Bible about the commandments and I said to myself, I have got to stop deceiving myself. In my conscience I know what is right... I need to admit that.

1Jn:2:29: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[Eliyahu]

I have very good fellowship with Messianic Jews. They keep the Law, including Sabbath. Can you not accept them because they keep the Sabbath?
From my childhood I often heard that JW and SDA are heretic. But when I adore Him and fear God, I found keeping the Law has nothing wrong.
If you find some problem with SDA, then you should lower the tone. YOu must see the big, big problem coming up which is mentioned in Revelation, the Beast and the Harlot, the Anti-Christ. There may be a lot of people on this site who want to distract the attention from that Beast.
I know there is a problem with Eschatology of SDA. But I have never seen any denomination or group of people who is perfect in the eschatology. Even my church, PB is very much wrong in Eschatology. Please stop vehment attack on SDA.

 

[DHK]

I have very good fellowship with Messianic Jews. They keep the Law, including Sabbath. Can you not accept them because they keep the Sabbath?
From my childhood I often heard that JW and SDA are heretic. But when I adore Him and fear God, I found keeping the Law has nothing wrong.
If you find some problem with SDA, then you should lower the tone. YOu must see the big, big problem coming up which is mentioned in Revelation, the Beast and the Harlot, the Anti-Christ. There may be a lot of people on this site who want to distract the attention from that Beast.
I know there is a problem with Eschatology of SDA. But I have never seen any denomination or group of people who is perfect in the eschatology. Even my church, PB is very much wrong in Eschatology. Please stop vehment attack on SDA.

The SDA is a cult with an actual beginning started by a false prophetess called Ellen G. White. Many of the beliefs of the SDA are based on her book "The Great Controversy, which Claudia used to quote from extensively, until warned not to. Thus the SDA has more than one authority as Claudia in the past has demonstrated. Bob, on the other hand has consistently put forth his arguments from the view point of sola scriptura, but that is not the typical standard of the SDA. Their beliefs are forumlated from Ellen G. White, her writings, and in particular "The Great Controversy." Within that framieword, and her theology that are a great many doctrines that most people within Orthodox Christianity would disagree:
1. The "requirement" of Sabbath observance. Note it is a requirement.
2. The label of the mark of the beast of those who don't.
3. The doctrine of Investigative Judgement.
4. The annihilation of the wicked.
5. Soul sleep.
6. Salvation by faith plus works (keeping the law)

Plus a number of others which I haven't mentioned. It is abhorrent to think that Christ has not finished his atoning work on the cross and is still atoning for our sins in heaven, not yet having entered into the holy of holies. This in particular is a blasphemous teaching. How can this cult be considered within the realm of orthodox Christianity when it teaches such things?

 

[Claudia_T]

Yeah this is one thing the SDAs teach:

Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. We are now standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. No sacrifices are to be offered without, for the great High Priest is performing His work in the most holy place. In His intercession as our advocate, Christ needs no man's virtue, no man's intercession. He is the only sin-bearer, the only sin-offering. Prayer and confession are to be offered only to Him who has entered once for all into the most holy place. He will save the uttermost all who come to Him in faith. He ever liveth to make intercession for us. {BEcho, May 1, 1899 par. 3}


I think thats found in the book of Hebrews as well.

 

[DHK]

Yeah this is one thing the SDAs teach:

Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. We are now standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. No sacrifices are to be offered without, for the great High Priest is performing His work in the most holy place. In His intercession as our advocate, Christ needs no man's virtue, no man's intercession. He is the only sin-bearer, the only sin-offering. Prayer and confession are to be offered only to Him who has entered once for all into the most holy place. He will save the uttermost all who come to Him in faith. He ever liveth to make intercession for us. {BEcho, May 1, 1899 par. 3}


I think thats found in the book of Hebrews as well.

It is not in the Book of Hebrews. What is in the Book of Hebrews is that I can come right before the throne of grace finding help in a time of need. That means I enter in the holy of holies if there even be such a thing in heaven. No, I come right before the very throne of God. (Heb.4:15). I bypass the outer court, and even the inner court. I come right to the throne of God. Your theology is completely aberrant in this view.
I am a priest before God, and need not have any intercessor.
Sacrifices are done away with. Christ offers no sacrifices. All sacrifices were done away with once and for all with the death of Christ--the only sacrifice which counts for all eternity.

1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I discovered the Sabbath in an 'evangelical light', to so put it, from a Calvinistic Reformed point of view as well as background (of about 15 years after having become conscious of the things of God).
Whom would anyone think to first of all tell about such a 'discovery'? Of course those who already know about the Sabbath - the SDAs of course! You think they would lend me an ear? Scoffing has been the only thing I have so far received from them with the exception of about half a dozen individuals - especially from their 'scholars' and pastors!
My point here is to justify my finding about the SDAs.
One. They do not base their doctrine on the Bible or on the the Bible only, but,
Two, their authority in matters of faith and doctrine is finally determined by Mrs White.
Three. They are legalists for holding to the Law by reason of the Law for the Law's own sake to the detriment of the glory of Jesus Christ. This is their most serious shortcoming. They pit the Law against Christ, claiming the glory of Christ, for the Law. I have experienced it first hand - as can be seen on this very board. I don't want to state this conclusion in the spirit of aversion, but must admit it with disappointment and heartsore.
When I wanted to share the beauty of the Gospel-Sabbath with them, they stopped me through tactics so hypocritical I cannot describe it, and at one occasion so far, it felt to me they might have assaulted me ... if I left not betimes.
So, I'm sorry, but my experience of the SDAs wasn't pleasant nor inspiring.

 

[Claudia_T]

oh brother

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It is not in the Book of Hebrews. What is in the Book of Hebrews is that I can come right before the throne of grace finding help in a time of need. That means I enter in the holy of holies if there even be such a thing in heaven. No, I come right before the very throne of God. (Heb.4:15). I bypass the outer court, and even the inner court. I come right to the throne of God. Your theology is completely aberrant in this view.
I am a priest before God, and need not have any intercessor.
Sacrifices are done away with. Christ offers no sacrifices. All sacrifices were done away with once and for all with the death of Christ--the only sacrifice which counts for all eternity.

1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Amen!
BobRyan will recall our debate on this board, and he used the words - to revile me - that it is "Christ entering Christ" when speaking of 'atonement finished'! In other words, Jesus saved us fully when He revived from the dead and the grave on the slopes of Jerusalem 2000 years ago; then the temple of God was with men, and heaven was upon our earth, and the highest of heavens and the innermost of God's temple was "In Sabbath's fulness of light ..." when Christ entered in full fellowship of the Trinity.