More Seventh-Day Adventists

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

oh brother

GE:
Exactly like I've said.
Why have you turned dumb, Claudia?

 

[Claudia_T]

I think I will just eat some popcorn and watch this show

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think I will just eat some popcorn and watch this show

GE:
And I'll be one of the clowns presenting it; kind of like it. But I tell you I am thankfull for the theatre the Baptists so graciously provide the players ... and God, for the opportunity.

 

[BobRyan]

I have very good fellowship with Messianic Jews. They keep the Law, including Sabbath. Can you not accept them because they keep the Sabbath?

And it is interesting that the Seventh-day Baptists have found a way to avoid the need to rebel against Christ the Creator's Ten Commandments - especially His Holy day MADE for mankind -- and yet still be baptist.

That is why I find it odd that any Baptist would assume this is an "SDA" idea.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA is a cult with an actual beginning started by a false prophetess called Ellen G. White. Many of the beliefs of the SDA are based on her book "The Great Controversy,

Have you found even ONE of the 27 Fundamental beliefs (err - 28) of SDAs that is proven simply by quoting Ellen White?

which Claudia used to quote from extensively, until warned not to. Thus the SDA has more than one authority as Claudia in the past has demonstrated. Bob, on the other hand has consistently put forth his arguments from the view point of sola scriptura, but that is not the typical standard of the SDA.

Just because someone quotes Calvin or Luther or Wesley or Knox does not mean they do not also base their beliefs on a sola-scriptura foundation.

The approach that I use is used in all the SDA evangelistic programs -- "sola scriptura" doctrinal arguments. I don't claim that everyone will agree with the arguments - but they stand or fall sola scriptura.

The difference is I try very hard not to even quote Ellen White in these discussions so that no one is the least bit confused as to what the "proofs" are for a given point being made.

Their beliefs are forumlated from Ellen G. White, her writings, and in particular "The Great Controversy."

False.

Within that framieword, and her theology that are a great many doctrines that most people within Orthodox Christianity would disagree:
1. The "requirement" of Sabbath observance. Note it is a requirement.
2. The label of the mark of the beast of those who don't.
3. The doctrine of Investigative Judgement.
4. The annihilation of the wicked.
5. Soul sleep.
6. Salvation by faith plus works (keeping the law)

I would agree that non-SDAs do not agree with all SDA doctrines - but that is blatently obvious for all groups with a doctrinal framework.

I would argue that you have point 6 dead wrong. SDAs believe that we are saved by grace through faith as Paul says in Romans 3 "apart from the works of the Law" and ALSO that "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" as James says in James 2.

We do not have the luxury of dividing scripture up between the good-bible and the bad-bible. We have to read and accept ALL of it.

Plus a number of others which I haven't mentioned. It is abhorrent to think that Christ has not finished his atoning work on the cross and is still atoning for our sins in heaven, not yet having entered into the holy of holies.

How can you be so far from the truth even in your efforts to report what others believe?

Surely you don't need to get it all wrong!

#1. We believe that the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ mentioned in 1John 2:2 is FULL AND COMPLETE at the cross.

#2. We believe that the HIGH PRIESTLY work of Christ predicted in Lev 16's definition of the day of atonement and SHOWN in Heb 8 and 9 began AFTER He ascended to heaven JUST as Heb 8 states.

#3. We believe that Christ IS IN the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary! In fact emphasizing that point was the entire point behind the start of the SDA church.

By inventing and filtering - you have managed to come up with a straw man that nobody follows!

Nice going.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

GE:
And I'll be one of the clowns presenting it; kind of like it. But I tell you I am thankfull for the theatre the Baptists so graciously provide the players ... and God, for the opportunity.

What an excellent point!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dustin]

I wonder about the SDA attackers.
What did they do about Roman Catholic?
Idol worship, goddess worship is OK to them?
Why were they quiet about such pagan heresy?
Then, do they attack the people if they keep the Law?
Do we have to ignore "thou shalt not kill" and " thou shalt not commit adultry" in order to become Orthodox?
Which one of Mosaic Law should be ignored in order to become the Orthodox?
However, if anyone preaches that one can be saved by keeping the Law, then she or he is absolutely wrong.
One cannot be saved by keeping the Law.
One cannot be sanctified by keeping the Law either.
However, the saved person, the sanctified person do not ignore the Law but keep the Law in the Awe of Presence of God in the daily life.
If we follow the Law of Holy Spirit, we will do more than keeping the Law. Therefore keeping the Law cannot be a problem.
If anyone keeps the Law, is she or he heretic?
If anyone ignore the Law, is she or he an Orthodox?
Ah, Ha! that's why there are so many adulterous pastors who commit the adultery so often and excuse their behaviors in tricky way all the time!
There are so many, many, many adulterous pastors and priests in the so-called Orthodox churches who condemn SDA as heretic. Their conscience may be accusing them more if they try to keep the Law. Not only the pastors, but also the so-called( there is no distinction of laymen and clergy) lay people commit adultery in their daily life, doing divorce, abortion etc. To them, keeping the Law is a big problem because their conscience accuse them.
If you see the problem with legalism in SDA, you must find the problems with Roman Catholic first, because that's how you must cast out the beams in your eyes, then you will see the motes or dust in your brother's eyes. God sees a lot of problems in your life!
You must humble yourself first even though you may not keep the Law.
You must say what is right is right even though you may not keep the Law. Be honest!

I don't agree with either SDA's or Roman Catholics, but RC's I think are MORE off, in worse ways.

 

[Marcia]

I am answering Claudia's post on the closed thread. Claudia, you said get my info from SDA sources. Well, these are SDA sources that I posted.

http://www.bible.ca/7-mark-beast.htm

Quote:

1. 1. "Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast." ... "The reception of his mark must be something that involves the greatest offense that can be committed against God." (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith pages 170, 183)
   2. "Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible." (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23)
   3. "The Sunday Sabbath is purely a child of the Papacy. It is the mark of the beast." (Advent Review, Vol. I, No. 2, August, 1850.)
   4. "The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church." ... "The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark." (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281.
   5. "The mark of the beast is Sunday-keeping. A law will enforce this upon Seventh-day Adventists. They won't obey. Then they will be outlawed, persecuted, and condemned to death! Of all the wild Advent speculations in the prophecies, this deserves to stand among the wildest." (Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914)
   6. "Sunday-keeping is an institution of the first beast, and ALL who submit to obey this institution emphatically worship the first beast and receive his mark, 'the mark of the beast.' .... Those who worship the beast and his image by observing the first day are certainly idolaters, as were the worshippers of the golden calf." (Advent Review Extra, pages 10 and 11, August, 1850)
   7. "the Seventh day, Saturday, must be kept; that keeping Sunday is the mark of the beast; that all should pay tithes; that Mrs. White is inspired as were the writers of the Bible; that the Bible must be interpreted to harmonize with her writings" (Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914)

Also, I didn't say anything about the Mark of the Beast now. I said the SDA teaching is that when Jesus comes back those who worship on Sunday will have or receive the Mark of the Beast.

Do you deny that the SDA Church teaches this?

 

[DHK]

Have you found even ONE of the 27 Fundamental beliefs (err - 28) of SDAs that is proven simply by quoting Ellen White?
Bob

From one of Ellen White’s major works

. While discussing the doctrine of Investigative Judgment, Mrs. White presents the following teaching about salvation: "The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are counted worthy of ‘the resurrection of life.’ ... As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. ... every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God’s remembrance. ... all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance ... the work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another" (Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, pp. 425, 431).
FundamentalBaptistLibrary2000/WWW/ency/index.html

In short, it is heresy.

 

[Eliyahu]

The SDA is a cult with an actual beginning started by a false prophetess called Ellen G. White. Many of the beliefs of the SDA are based on her book "The Great Controversy, which Claudia used to quote from extensively, until warned not to. Thus the SDA has more than one authority as Claudia in the past has demonstrated. Bob, on the other hand has consistently put forth his arguments from the view point of sola scriptura, but that is not the typical standard of the SDA. Their beliefs are forumlated from Ellen G. White, her writings, and in particular "The Great Controversy." Within that framieword, and her theology that are a great many doctrines that most people within Orthodox Christianity would disagree:
1. The "requirement" of Sabbath observance. Note it is a requirement.
2. The label of the mark of the beast of those who don't.
3. The doctrine of Investigative Judgement.
4. The annihilation of the wicked.
5. Soul sleep.
6. Salvation by faith plus works (keeping the law)

I don't agree with them, but one thing which I want to be careful about is that we should not judge anyone without listening to him or to her in person. Most of the criticism against SDA is filtered by so-called major denominations such as Roman Catholic and Presbyterians ( which is, in my view, Reformed Catholic), and some other rigid, Orthodox etc.
We need some good evaluation from the point of Truly Bornagain Believers. I believe JW is a cult, but what if SDA teaches the gospel and then bornagain believers must keep the Law?
In my life I was taught to ignore the Law so much and pursue Grace and Holy Spirit all the time. But now I realize that if I had not ignored Law in my early days after Bornagain, I wouldn't have wasted too much time at the enormous expenses. I could have followed the short-cut. Now I want to kneel down in the presence of God any time and I know the Holy Spirit who was the Author of the Torah ( Law) doesnt work in contradiction to what He wrote in the Old Testament. What He works today is better than the Law itself, which doesn't mean that He destroys the Law.
In that aspect, we need the real study in the humble way. This is what I feel all the time when I have fellowship with Messianic Jews.
Please try to read some articles written by Rabbi there,
www.cmy.on.ca, then check D'Var Torah.
I disagree with Legalism, but there is a matter of Obedience to God.

Plus a number of others which I haven't mentioned. It is abhorrent to think that Christ has not finished his atoning work on the cross and is still atoning for our sins in heaven, not yet having entered into the holy of holies. This in particular is a blasphemous teaching. How can this cult be considered within the realm of orthodox Christianity when it teaches such things?

Yes, in this aspect, I notice such problem with SDA as well.
The Work done by Jesus Christ was perfect. No one can add anything to it. But SDA seems to present that some things or works should be done by human beings. Jesus's Sacrifice was perfect and sufficient Once for ALL.
That is important and that's how people can get the grace from God.
If we are fallen in the legalism, we lose a lot and become blinded in the darkness. But we need some serious and earnest discussion on this matter. I notice Messianic Jews are approaching thru the Mosaic Law, but they interpret Bible quite well. We need to study this matter in lower tone, and in humble way. Otherwise no one would listen to the other party, which result in no fruits at all. Hope you all have a sincere discussion on this issue.

 

[BobRyan]

In short, it is heresy.

that is a good RC tactic when dealing with ideas that do not please you - but you did not answer the question. Did you find even ONE of the fundamental beliefs of SDAs that relies on ANYTHING from Ellen White to serve as "proof" instead of standing or falling on a "sola-scriptura" basis?

If the answer is "yes" as you claim - then please provide some data.

Simply showing that Ellen White also believed something that SDAs believe is no kind of proof at all!

See? That was easy.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

DHK
Plus a number of others which I haven't mentioned. It is abhorrent to think that Christ has not finished his atoning work on the cross and is still atoning for our sins in heaven, not yet having entered into the holy of holies.

How can you be so far from the truth even in your efforts to report what others believe?

Surely you don't need to get it all wrong!

#1. We believe that the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ mentioned in 1John 2:2 is FULL AND COMPLETE at the cross.

#2. We believe that the HIGH PRIESTLY work of Christ predicted in Lev 16's definition of the day of atonement and SHOWN in Heb 8 and 9 began AFTER He ascended to heaven JUST as Heb 8 states.

#3. We believe that Christ IS IN the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary! In fact emphasizing that point was the entire point behind the start of the SDA church.

By inventing and filtering - you have managed to come up with a straw man that nobody follows!

------------------------------------------------------

going over that point time and time again - never gets old.

 

[Claudia_T]

I had already said more than once in the past that the reason I was quoting from Ellen White's writings was because at the time I was laid up in bed sick and couldnt type at length so it was just easier for me to copy and paste what she said on a subject since most of it was Bible verses much of the time anyway.

Claudia

 

[DHK]

How can you be so far from the truth even in your efforts to report what others believe?

Surely you don't need to get it all wrong!

#1. We believe that the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ mentioned in 1John 2:2 is FULL AND COMPLETE at the cross.
.

I don't believe you do. If you do, then why would Christ be continuing that very work in heaven right now in the investigative judgement. You contradict your own beliefs.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BolbRyan: //By inventing and filtering - you have managed
to come up with a straw man that nobody follows!//

But you have to be impressed how throughly that strawman was
demolished, flamed, discombulated, disassembled, crushed, etc.

Alas, it is easier to mimic somone's misunderstanding of
third party beliefs than to try to figure it out for youself.

Caveat: I don't support all SDA beliefs, I just happen to
understand how someone can believe that.

 

[Claudia_T]

I don't believe you do. If you do, then why would Christ be continuing that very work in heaven right now in the investigative judgement. You contradict your own beliefs.

because Jesus is our Mediator, thats why the Bible says we have an Advocate.

He is applying the blood, its simple.

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous


where do you think He is doing His advocating with the Father at?

He is our High Priest. Two roles, Lamb who shed the blood and High Priest who then applies the blood.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I just ran across this statement: "In 1877, Uriah Smith, an early Adventist, ... ".

I happen to have a book by Uriah Smith, I wonder if he is the same?

DANIEL and THE REVELATION,
The Response of History to the Voice of Prophecy
(Southern Publishing Asso., 1897).

I thought i inherited it from my Grandmother (maternal)
but I know my Grandfather (paternial) had some Mrs. White
books. I'll check with mother.

 

[Claudia_T]

Yes Uriah Smith wrote that book, I used to have it. Its like a commentary on both books...

 

[Ed Edwards]

U Smith writes cool.

Writing prior to 1964 he had no knowledge that
mankind would learn to do so much worse to themselves
than God promised in Revelation to do to the bad guys.
In fact, now it looks like God intervenes at the end
of the Tribulation Period in order to save mankind from
self extinction.

 

[DHK]

because Jesus is our Mediator, thats why the Bible says we have an Advocate.

He is an advocate for Christians, for those who are eternally secure in Christ. Christ justifies the ungodly without works.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

He is applying the blood, its simple.

That statement is heresy. Christ finished his atoning work. It was once for all completed on the cross. John 19:30 records the words of Jesus "It is finished!" The atoning work of Christ was finished at that point in history. There is nothing more to be done. He accomplished it all. There is absolutely nothing that man can do. No works. Works would accomplish nothing except to spit in the face of Jesus and say that his blood was not sufficient enough to atone for our sins. Look what the Bible says:

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
--This is not future. Those who believe in him have received atonement for their sins.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--Propitiation means satisfaction in the legal sense of the word. Christ satisfied the Father in that he paid the penalty for our sins. He atoned for our sins. He paid the penalty that was due. That penalty was paid on the cross. It was paid in full 2,000 years ago. There is no way that the atonement continues on.



1 John 2:2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. (WEB)
--The WEB translates the same word as "atoning sacrifice" which it is. Christ was our atoning sacrifice in that he paid (past tense) the penalty for our sins. He is not still paying for it. To say such is heresy.

1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
--He once suffered for sins--only once. Your doctrine is similar to the RCC, in that you teach he is still atoning for our sins.

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

The "we" is applicable to those that are eternally secure in Christ, those who already know that they have the gift of eternal life. It no way applies to those who do not have eternal life. Salvation is a one time act. It is not a process.

where do you think He is doing His advocating with the Father at?

He is omnipresent. He is God. He is everywhere. He is not confined to any one place.

He is our High Priest. Two roles, Lamb who shed the blood and High Priest who then applies the blood.

He is only our high Priest in the sense that each one of us are priests before God. We have access before the very throne of God, and need not to have any sacrifice at all.
To say that he applies blood is heresy. The blood was applied at the cross. He already shed his blood--once and for all. That sacrifice will never be repeated again. To say so is heresy.