More Seventh-Day Adventists

[BobRyan]

Christ finished his atoning work. It was once for all completed on the cross.

That statement is heresy.

Lev 16 states very clearly that the High Priest DOES DO WORK after the Lamb is slain and Heb 8 SHOWS us the work of our High Priest AFTER Christ ascended to heaven.

It is much better to accept what the Bible says on this topic rather than simply turning a blind eye to it.

In 1John 2:2 we find that Christ "is the ATONING SACRIFICE" for our sins -- fully completed at the cross.

That is the easy part.

But making up the heresy that Christ is NOT doing the High Priestly work SEEN in the Day of Atonement in Lev 16 and Described in Heb 4, 8 and 10 is to promote error instead of accepting scripture.

Heb 10 says that Christs "ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE" is complete.

that is the obvious and easy part.

But to then go on to deny the truths of Heb 8 and Lev 16 on the Day of Atonement and the work of the high priest is heresy.

(Ok - I am just using that term because it is fun to do so and DHK seems to be married to it at the moment. You know what they say "When in Rome...")

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I don't believe you do. If you do, then why would Christ be continuing that very work in heaven right now in the investigative judgement. You contradict your own beliefs.

Wrong. You fail to distinguish between the role of Christ in Lev 16 as the LAMB of God -- the Lord's Goat -- vs the role of Christ in Lev 16 as HIGH PRIEST.

I accept BOTH of His roles and SEE them defined CLEARLY in the NT text.

1John 2:2 and Heb 10 show CLEARLY His work as the "Atoning Sacrifice" full and COMPLETED at cross!

Heb 8 and 9 show CLEARLY His work as HIGH PRIEST started AFTER He went to heaven and modeled for us in the Day of Atonement by the High Priest in Lev 16. You simply choose to gloss over those details and turn a blind eye to your error of equivocation. Then you complain that I acknowledge those inconvenient details you so wish to ignore.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Gosh I wish I could be like Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

Alas, it is easier to mimic somone's misunderstanding of
third party beliefs than to try to figure it out for youself.

Caveat: I don't support all SDA beliefs, I just happen to
understand how someone can believe that.

Good points Ed - and here is something to think about. What DHK is doing is offering a style of argument that can only appeal to "the already convinced" because "believers need no real evidence" of an argument they already accept!

But such methods are worthless as a means for conveying light and discovering truth outside of the conclave of "yes-men".

I don't mean to accuse DHK of having a monopoly on this since I think it is merely human nature to make arguments of the form "We are right because we always say we are righ so we don't need no stinking objective arguments to support our views".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by DHK
Christ finished his atoning work. It was once for all completed on the cross.

That statement is heresy.
Bob

Bob, I need not say anything but let others comment on your position here.
To attribute the finished work of Christ as heresy is indeed sad.

 

[BobRyan]

To one's own conclave of "yes men" no valid objective argument is needed - you seem to be relying on that fact to make your case rather then quoting the inconvenient details of the post and addressing them.

You just proved my point.

 

[Marcia]

Lev 16 states very clearly that the High Priest DOES DO WORK after the Lamb is slain and Heb 8 SHOWS us the work of our High Priest AFTER Christ ascended to heaven.

It is much better to accept what the Bible says on this topic rather than simply turning a blind eye to it.

In 1John 2:2 we find that Christ "is the ATONING SACRIFICE" for our sins -- fully completed at the cross.

That is the easy part.

But making up the heresy that Christ is NOT doing the High Priestly work SEEN in the Day of Atonement in Lev 16 and Described in Heb 4, 8 and 10 is to promote error instead of accepting scripture.

I do not see either in Lev 16 where any atonement goes beyond the prescribed actions for atonement, nor in Heb 8 is there indication that Jesus continues atoning for sins now.

In fact, in Heb 8.1b it states:

We have such a high priest, one who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven

Jesus sitting down is a picture of his atoning work having been completed, as it says in Heb 1.3:

The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

This "sitting down" is very significant and shows that the work of atonement had been completed.

 

[Claudia_T]

I do not see either in Lev 16 where any atonement goes beyond the prescribed actions for atonement, nor in Heb 8 is there indication that Jesus continues atoning for sins now.

In fact, in Heb 8.1b it states:


Jesus sitting down is a picture of his atoning work having been completed, as it says in Heb 1.3:


This "sitting down" is very significant and shows that the work of atonement had been completed.

"Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:9, 23; 8:5; 9:24

 

[DHK]

To one's own conclave of "yes men" no valid objective argument is needed - you seem to be relying on that fact to make your case rather then quoting the inconvenient details of the post and addressing them.

You just proved my point.

The Bible proves my point over and over again:

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. (WEB)

1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Marcia]

"Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:9, 23; 8:5; 9:24

And how does this say he is appearing in heaven in order to atone for us? It does not say that.

 

[Claudia_T]

And how does this say he is appearing in heaven in order to atone for us? It does not say that.

Because the Bible says He is our Advocate. Thats what an Advocate does. He pleads our case for us, based upon His shed blood for our sins that has already been accomplished at the cross... He has taken our place. If we repent of our sins He pleads His blood for us.. Imagine Jesus lifting up His nail pierced hands to the Father in heaven pleading our case...

But if we deny Him He will deny us...

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

Mt:10:
33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
38: And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39: He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Its the part about us taking up OUR CROSS and denying self that people would really like to get rid of in all of this... people want the crown but not the cross...

When Jesus talks about that He will deny us before the Father in heaven, He's speaking about pleading for us.

He will not plead His blood for us unless we repent of our sins and take up our cross in self denial and follow Him..
Note that it says in verse 39 that we have to "lose our own lives for His sake then we will gain it"; meaning we have to allow self to DIE and allow Jesus to live in us through the Holy Spirt...

...if we dont do that then we are in effect DENYING Jesus before men and He will thus deny us before the Father...

This has nothing whatsoever to do with some idea that the atonement wasnt finished at the cross... SDAs do not teach that. The truth is that only those who repent of their sins and who obey God are entitled to the gift of His blood. Yet there isnt one thing we can do to somehow earn it. Repentance is a free gift from God and we choose whether or not to accept it.

It has to do with who is ENTITLED to the atonement. In some respects we are justified by faith alone and in others we are justified by our works, which the Bible plainly teaches, like it or not.. our works prove we have genuine faith. SDAs just bring out this part of things that many other Christians would like to look the other way on. we well know the justified by faith part of it... but we are bringing to light that part which people would like to ignore..

Jms:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jms:2:25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jms:2:21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Gal:2:17: But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Rom:2:13: (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.)


..this is the way that I view the entire thing, I dont speak for all Seventh Day Adventists Im sure. Its just what I get when I myself read the Scriptures.

It's funny because one time I made a cassette tape about Justification by Faith alone and this one guy who was totally in belief of "believing alone" for salvation listened to the tape and he said it was the best sermon he had ever heard on justification by faith alone and that it brought tears to his eyes. SDAs are often misunderstood about this subject unfortunately... mostly because people have this preconceived idea about things we believe and so they dont bother to actually listen to what we are really saying to them. They want to believe that we are legalistic and so they just wont listen.

I mean, I could sit here and argue on the other side of this... believe me. There is absolutely NOTHING we can do to earn salvation.

But we have an Advocate who is now pleading for us in Heaven before the Father. And He only applies the blood for those who repent of their sins and endeavor to obey God. Yes they will often fall and fail and thus the Bible says to sin not but if we do sin we have an Advocate. SIN means transgression of the Law.

1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous


You must do two things... three actually, rely completely and absolutely upon the shed blood of Jesus for our sins, repent, and endeavor with all your heart to obey God out of love for Him and for your neighbor. Expect you will often fall short... but we have an Advocate.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Zechariah 1:13. Through an illustration in the Bible we can see the work of Satan and the work of Christ, The Mediator silences the accuser of His people.

In this vision the prophet beholds "Joshua the high priest," "clothed with filthy garments" (Zechariah 3:1, 3), standing before the Angel of the Lord, pleading God's mercy in behalf of his people. As he pleads for the God's promises to be fulfilled, Satan stands up to resist him. Satan is pointing to the sins of God's as a reason why they should not be restored to God's favor. He claims them as his own, and demands that they be given to him.

But the high priest cannot defend his people from Satan's accusations. He does not say they have no sins. In the filthy garments, symbolizing the sins of the people, which he wears as their representative, he stands before the Angel confessing their guilt, but at the same time he points to their repentance, and relying upon the mercy of a sin-pardoning Redeemer. He claims the promises of God for them.

The Angel who is Jesus Himself, silences the accuser of His people, saying, "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Verse 2.

Joshua's intercession is accepted, "Take away the filthy garments from him;" and to Joshua himself the Angel says, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." "So they set a fair miter upon his head, and clothed him with garments." Verses 4, 5.

Israel was clothed with "change of raiment"--the righteousness of Christ imputed to them. Then the miter is placed upon Joshua's head and had the inscription, "Holiness to the Lord" (Exodus 28:36), symbolizing that even with his former sins, he was now qualified to minister before God in His sanctuary.

Now Jesus says to Joshua: "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in My ways, and if thou wilt keep My charge, then thou shalt also judge My house, and shalt also keep My courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by." Zechariah 3:7.

IF OBEDIENT, he would be honored as the ruler, over the temple and all its services; he should walk among angels.

 

[Shiloh]

Now we know why ITimothy 2:11 is in the Bible! I'm sure that goes for frizzle headed little girls too.

 

[Eliyahu]

Now we know why ITimothy 2:11 is in the Bible! I'm sure that goes for frizzle headed little girls too.

I am so-called Plymouth Brethren, which applies this rule strictly to the worship service and to the public services.
But it doesn't mean that women should not work for preaching the gospel, at all. Women are encouraged to preach the gospel as well. They can teach children, Elderly women must be respected and they can teach young women, they can work for Mercy ministry, and can also work by literature ministry, music, so, many, many.
We owe greatly to the women song writers such as Fanny Jane Crosby, Anne Ross Cousin, Eliza Edmunds Hewitt, and so many sisters in the Lord.

Remember that Lord Jesus showed up to Mary first, not to the disciples such as John and Peter. Actually the disciples were rather coward in approaching the tomb, let alone the fact that they deserted their Lord when He was on the trial.
Showing up to the women first is very much important signal, because it implies that there will be no discrimination between the genders, and that the faithful and sincere women who worked for the Lord without having the reputation or fame, will be exalted.

I don't believe that only the men will be elected as 24 elders in the next millenium, but men may be ashamed about their contribution, because many men wasted their capacity or abused their rights depite so many good opportunities.

Yes, in the church service, either worship service or any public service, women are supposed to be silent.

However, this site is not for the worship service or for the public service. Everyone must be equally able to present the opinions. If we prevent such freedom referring to 1 Tim 2:11, then it is obviously an abuse of the right.

 

[Shiloh]

I'm sorry........should I rip that verse out of my Bible?

 

[Claudia_T]

I'm sorry........should I rip that verse out of my Bible?

Well you dont really have to, you could just keep abusing the verse if you want.....


Claudia

 

[Eliyahu]

I'm sorry........should I rip that verse out of my Bible?

Problem is that you don't know how to interpret the bible and how to apply it to the life.

Read Romans 16:1 about Phebe, Read Acts 18:26 about Aquila and Priscilla, Euodias and Syntyche in Phil 4:2, Acts 16:4 about Lydia.
We should distinguish between Worship Service and the private life, between public service in the church and preaching the gospel outside the church. Satan may prevent women from preaching the gospel referring to the verse you quoted.
Should we eliminate all the songs written by women, in the Hymn books?

Please cool down yourself by listening to this wonderful music.

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/c/ocwbubth.htm

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/r/e/redeemed.htm

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/e/tellmsoj.htm

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/u/sunshine.htm

Remember that we, so-called Plymouth Brethren, apply that NT doctrine strictly to the church services, but the men don't rule over the women, we all must humbly obey to God.

 

[Eliyahu]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2. We believe that the HIGH PRIESTLY work of Christ predicted in Lev 16's definition of the day of atonement and SHOWN in Heb 8 and 9 began AFTER He ascended to heaven JUST as Heb 8 states.

Remember that Jesus performs His Priestly Ministry after His Ascension and it is based on what He has done already at the Cross. He doesn't do anything newly there in Heaven because what He did at the Cross is valid ONCE FOR ALL, eternally. He doesn't forgive our daily sins based on new sacrifices other than What He has done at the Cross.
This is why what Jesus has done at the Cross is so much, so much precious to all, eternally.

 

[Claudia_T]

Isa:49:16: Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Now we know why ITimothy 2:11 is in the Bible! I'm sure that goes for frizzle headed little girls too.

GE:

I don't care that she's a woman; my woman is much more intelligent and wiser than me. If she talks sense, she should speak out and not be hindered, you bully-boys; I have no respect for bully-boys; have you?

If she talks nonsense, then like any man, she should be answered properly. I often fail in just this, to my shame.