More Seventh-Day Adventists

[BobRyan]

DHK said

Has anyone actually seen Christ return, except for the imagination of Ellen G. White who insists that he "returned" to heaven when he still was in heaven--not a return at all--just a lie when you think of it.

DHK is pretty consistent when building his strawmen to always quote himself.

Try again DHK --

If your argument is that Dan 7 is wrong and should not be used for doctrine -- then show your work instead of making stuff up. SDA doctrine by definition is a "bible question" to be proven or disproven -- by definition. Your attempts to make up wild stories not withstanding.

Dan 7
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said
4. Can anyone verify if all the other signs mentioned in the prophecy of Joel have already taken place.
The answer to these questions is a resounding NO!

Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn
DHK:
"Acts 2:16-21 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
. . . .


Certainly it is to be fulfilled in the end of time when with a great light the "everlasting Gospel goes out to the whole world" according to Rev 14:6-7.

SDA's point to an end-time event for Joel 2 called the "Latter Rain" in SDA parlance - and state that this is future to our day.

How DHK turns this into "making more stuff up" as he continues to "quote DHK" for his proof is beyond me.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

E. The Stars Fall from Heaven
Prophecy: "And the stars shall fall from heaven." Matthew 24:29.
Fulfillment: The great star shower took place on the night of November 13, 1833. It was so bright that a newspaper could be read on the street. One writer says, "For nearly four hours the sky was literally ablaze."* Men thought the end of the world had come. Look into this. It is most fascinating, and a sign of Christ's coming.
*Peter A. Millman, "The Falling of the Stars," The Telescope, 7 (May-June, 1940) 57.

DHK
Where do you live--Pennsylvania? You poor deprived soul. I live in what might be called "the Great White North" by many. We see meteor showers on a regular basis. Once every few years a bright meteor shower (Leonid's meteor shower takes place in the fashion that you described it.) Almost every year we see other meteor showers. These are very common.
Have you ever seen the aurora borealis, otherwise known as the Northern Lights? It is a great display of "lights" of varying colors in the sky in the night time caused by the sun sending forth a cloud of elecrically charged particles, otherwise known as a solar wind which in turn interacts with the earths magnetic field. It is a phenomena which we are able to see in the north, but you are unable to see in the south. Surely these are signs in the heavens. We see them all the time. They have been here from time immemorrial. You can be easily hoodwinked.

Once again you are "telling yourself stories" instead of looking for actual objective fact.

The star fall mentioned above is a matter of historic record in terms of the magnitude going far beyond what you are seeing in the great white north each year. The event WAS treated as a great unnusual sign leading to the study of God's Word on these signs EVEN in the "great white north".

Here is a quote from Sky and Telescope (not an SDA publication for the benefit of you conspiracy theorists)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Imagine for a moment that you are living in any American city or town in 1833. During the small hours of a cold November night, you are awakened by shouting and commotion in the streets. Someone is pounding on your door, and strange flares of light show through the window. Heart pounding, you race to the door. Is the town burning? Crowds are milling in the dark street shouting and pointing up. Suddenly you realize that the heavens are on fire, ablaze with streaks of light. It has to be the Day of Judgment! [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Scenes like this occurred in nearly every American community on the night of November 12-13, 1833. It was one of history's greatest meteor storms, and for the first time it put the study of meteors squarely on astronomers' agendas. The sky conditions were ideal; the waxing crescent Moon set early, and mostly clear weather prevailed over eastern North America. Some people noticed an unusual number of meteors as early as 10 p.m., but nothing could have prepared them for the cosmic eruption that occurred between 2 a.m. and dawn. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Witnesses described seeing tens of thousands of meteors[/FONT]

Once again DHK's story telling simply fizzles. That has just got to be dissatisfying at some point.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Shiloh: The disappointed expectations for Christ’s return in 1844 were the result of a misunderstandingby posts 2940, family time 0

Question, If your fearless leader whom you canonized was wrong....don't you think it is possible for you to be wrong also?

BR”s reponse: But getting to the point "could you be wrong" of course Shiloh "could be wrong" and Allen "Could be wrong" and Bob "could be wrong".

But the Bible CAN't BE wrong - which is why I always prove my arguments sola-scriptura and it is why I expose the doctrinal errors of those who actually post doctrinal point in opposition …

HP: In fairness Bob, I have not found all of your assertions to be substanciated by the Word of God….at least so far.

Take some issues I addressed, the one concerning the scapegoat, and the other concerning the name of the scapegoat Azazel. I have not heard back a response from either you or Claudia. Show us your proof ‘sola-scriptura for the doctrinal points that are raised in these assertions. How about the assertion you make that all have been given the gospel message. I realize the passages you consistently refer to, but that is a far cry from proving them. What you have denoted as proof in these areas is nothing more than trying to get the verses in questions to walk on our four legs to prove your preconceived notions.

Take the scapegoat issue. Would you admit that your interpretation might in fact be in error, and say the position I asserted might be closer to the truth? I am not asking you if you are convinced you are wrong, I am asking you if in the deep recesses of your fair-mindedness the thought might have occurred to you that you and Claudia might in fact be wrong in these areas? Does the possibility exist that someone in the dark regions of heathendom might also have died without hearing the gospel message?

Just wondering.

 

[Claudia_T]

E. The Stars Fall from Heaven
Prophecy: "And the stars shall fall from heaven." Matthew 24:29.
Fulfillment: The great star shower took place on the night of November 13, 1833. It was so bright that a newspaper could be read on the street. One writer says, "For nearly four hours the sky was literally ablaze."* Men thought the end of the world had come. Look into this. It is most fascinating, and a sign of Christ's coming.
*Peter A. Millman, "The Falling of the Stars," The Telescope, 7 (May-June, 1940) 57.


Once again you are "telling yourself stories" instead of looking for actual objective fact.

The star fall mentioned above is a matter of historic record in terms of the magnitude going far beyond what you are seeing in the great white north each year. The event WAS treated as a great unnusual sign leading to the study of God's Word on these signs EVEN in the "great white north".

Here is a quote from Sky and Telescope (not an SDA publication for the benefit of you conspiracy theorists)



Once again DHK's story telling simply fizzles. That has just got to be dissatisfying at some point.

I think the timing of the whole thing is amazing, myself... first of all because of the closeness of the time of the sun to darkness and moon to blood prophecy... the closeness of time between that and THEN the stars falling NEXT... that is the same sequence it says in the Bible where Jesus tells of the process of events before the second coming...

These things occurring is telling us the "End Times" had begun...

then of course there was 1844, soon afterwards...after the stars falling..

1780 for the sun and moon, then 1833 for the stars, then 1844 for the Judgment beginning...

the entire timing of all of this is mind boggling. (for those of us who understand it)


first the sun and the moon (at the same time, even) and then the stars,,, JUST LIKE JESUS SAID! amazing to my little womanly mind.








C. The Sun Turned into Darkness
Prophecy: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened." Matthew 24:29.
Fulfillment: This was fulfilled by a day of supernatural darkness on May 19, 1780. It was not an eclipse. Timothy Dwight says, "The 19th of May, 1780, was a remarkable dark day. Candles were lighted in many houses; the birds were silent and disappeared, and the fowls retired to roost. ... A very general opinion prevailed, that the day of judgment was at hand." Quoted in Connecticut Historical Collections, compiled by John Warner Barber (2nd ed.; New Haven: Durrie & Peck and J.W. Barber, 1836) p. 403.

D. The Moon Turned into Blood
Prophecy: "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come." Joel 2:31.
Fulfillment: The moon became as red as blood on the night of the "dark day," May 19, 1780. Milo Bostick in Stone's History of Massachusetts says, "The moon which was at its full, had the appearance of blood."


The great star shower took place on November 13, 1833.
E. The Stars Fall from Heaven
Prophecy: "And the stars shall fall from heaven." Matthew 24:29.
Fulfillment: The great star shower took place on the night of November 13, 1833. It was so bright that a newspaper could be read on the street. One writer says, "For nearly four hours the sky was literally ablaze."* Men thought the end of the world had come. Look into this. It is most fascinating, and a sign of Christ's coming.
*Peter A. Millman, "The Falling of the Stars," The Telescope, 7 (May-June, 1940) 57.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: In fairness Bob, I have not found all of your assertions to be substanciated by the Word of God….at least so far.

Take some issues I addressed, the one concerning the scapegoat, and the other concerning the name of the scapegoat Azazel. I have not heard back a response from either you or Claudia. Show us your proof ‘sola-scriptura for the doctrinal points that are raised in these assertions. How about the assertion you make that all have been given the gospel message. I realize the passages you consistently refer to, but that is a far cry from proving them. What you have denoted as proof in these areas is nothing more than trying to get the verses in questions to walk on our four legs to prove your preconceived notions.

Take the scapegoat issue. Would you admit that your interpretation might in fact be in error, and say the position I asserted might be closer to the truth? I am not asking you if you are convinced you are wrong, I am asking you if in the deep recesses of your fair-mindedness the thought might have occurred to you that you and Claudia might in fact be wrong in these areas? Does the possibility exist that someone in the dark regions of heathendom might also have died without hearing the gospel message?

Just wondering.

GE:
In the last analysis they MUST oblige Mrs White in these matters. Or they will have to first of all renounce their doctrine of her 'prophetic' infallibility. The fault is with their Church which dogmatises 'the Spirit of Prophecy'. They as a Church could have stayed with Mrs White while testing her against the Scriptures --- like an ordinary human being. But no, the Church says so, so she must be the norm in everything. It's their Church, more than she. That's why Bob and will never admit.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think the timing of the whole thing is amazing, myself... first of all because of the closeness of the time of the sun to darkness and moon to blood prophecy... the closeness of time between that and THEN the stars falling NEXT... that is the same sequence it says in the Bible where Jesus tells of the process of events before the second coming...

These things occurring is telling us the "End Times" had begun...

then of course there was 1844, soon afterwards...after the stars falling..

1780 for the sun and moon, then 1833 for the stars, then 1844 for the Judgment beginning...

the entire timing of all of this is mind boggling. (for those of us who understand it)


first the sun and the moon (at the same time, even) and then the stars,,, JUST LIKE JESUS SAID! amazing to my little womanly mind.








C. The Sun Turned into Darkness
Prophecy: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened." Matthew 24:29.
Fulfillment: This was fulfilled by a day of supernatural darkness on May 19, 1780. It was not an eclipse. Timothy Dwight says, "The 19th of May, 1780, was a remarkable dark day. Candles were lighted in many houses; the birds were silent and disappeared, and the fowls retired to roost. ... A very general opinion prevailed, that the day of judgment was at hand." Quoted in Connecticut Historical Collections, compiled by John Warner Barber (2nd ed.; New Haven: Durrie & Peck and J.W. Barber, 1836) p. 403.

D. The Moon Turned into Blood
Prophecy: "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come." Joel 2:31.
Fulfillment: The moon became as red as blood on the night of the "dark day," May 19, 1780. Milo Bostick in Stone's History of Massachusetts says, "The moon which was at its full, had the appearance of blood."


The great star shower took place on November 13, 1833.
E. The Stars Fall from Heaven
Prophecy: "And the stars shall fall from heaven." Matthew 24:29.
Fulfillment: The great star shower took place on the night of November 13, 1833. It was so bright that a newspaper could be read on the street. One writer says, "For nearly four hours the sky was literally ablaze."* Men thought the end of the world had come. Look into this. It is most fascinating, and a sign of Christ's coming.
*Peter A. Millman, "The Falling of the Stars," The Telescope, 7 (May-June, 1940) 57.

GE:
Claudia, you are so innocently naive, I dislike your cruel Church the more for it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CT:
"These things occurring is telling us the "End Times" had begun...

then of course there was 1844, soon afterwards...after the stars falling..

1780 for the sun and moon, then 1833 for the stars, then 1844 for the Judgment beginning...

the entire timing of all of this is mind boggling. (for those of us who understand it)


first the sun and the moon (at the same time, even) and then the stars,,, JUST LIKE JESUS SAID! amazing to my little womanly mind. "

GE:
No Claudia, Not, "JUST LIKE JESUS SAID"! Where did He say all this stuff? He didn't!

 

[Claudia_T]

CT:
"These things occurring is telling us the "End Times" had begun...

then of course there was 1844, soon afterwards...after the stars falling..

1780 for the sun and moon, then 1833 for the stars, then 1844 for the Judgment beginning...

the entire timing of all of this is mind boggling. (for those of us who understand it)


first the sun and the moon (at the same time, even) and then the stars,,, JUST LIKE JESUS SAID! amazing to my little womanly mind. "

GE:
No Claudia, Not, "JUST LIKE JESUS SAID"! Where did He say all this stuff? He didn't!

Yes Jesus did say these things, to let His Disciples know when the end was near:

Matthew 24:
1: And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2: And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8: All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10: And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19: And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25: Behold, I have told you before.
26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28: For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32: Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


so did the prophet Joel:

Joel:2:10: The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joel:2:31: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel:3:15: The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

We are look for after the signs, but Christ says, no one know what day and hour, Lord comes, be ready all the times. Also, we have to be creful with any "prophets' such as baptist pastor Miller claimed Christ come in year 1844. He failed. Even, Armstrong, the founder of Jehvoah Witness setted the date of Christ's return. He failed it all. We better not pay attention to any person who cliam that they are prophet. We must always be ready all the time. I do believe we should look up at the sky for the cosmic disturbance of Matt. 24:29-31. Be ready all the times. Or, if we are not ready, then we would be doomed - lake of fire.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Claudia_T]

and by the way, right in its proper order Jesus prophesied about earthquakes:

These signs were witnessed before the opening of the nineteenth century. In fulfilment of this prophecy there occurred, in the year 1755, the most terrible earthquake that has ever been recorded. Though commonly known as the earthquake of Lisbon, it extended to the greater part of Europe, Africa, and America. It was felt in Greenland, in the West Indies, in the island of Madeira, in Norway and Sweden, Great Britain and Ireland. It pervaded an extent of not less than four million square miles. In Africa the shock was almost as severe as in Europe. A great part of Algiers was destroyed; and a short distance from Morocco, a village containing eight or ten thousand inhabitants was swallowed up. A vast wave swept over the coast of Spain and Africa, engulfing cities, and causing great destruction.

It was in Spain and Portugal that the shock manifested its extreme violence. At Cadiz the inflowing wave was said to be sixty feet high. Mountains, "some of the largest in Portugal, were impetuously shaken, as it were, from their very foundations." . . .--Sir Charles Lyell, Principles of Geology, p. 495. . . . "The earthquake happened on a holy day, when the churches and convents were full of people, very few of whom escaped."-- Encyclopedia

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK is pretty consistent when building his strawmen to always quote himself.

Try again DHK --

If your argument is that Dan 7 is wrong and should not be used for doctrine -- then show your work instead of making stuff up. SDA doctrine by definition is a "bible question" to be proven or disproven -- by definition. Your attempts to make up wild stories not withstanding.

Dan 7
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:
BobRyan, you, try again!
I'll tell you where to read the EXACT fulfilment of this prophecy of Daniel 7, virtually word for word! But why should I at second thought, seeing I have already, at various occasions; but BobRyan turns a deaf ear, smurking, this poor fool ... (I could almost feel). Nevertheless ... it's Ephesians chapter one from verse 19 onwards to the end of the chapter.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CT:
"Yes Jesus did say these things, to let His Disciples know when the end was near:"

GE:
Jesus uttered no dates. He made no associations with an obscure judgemental process. This is, 'making stuff up' (as one ofter reads on the Board).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
""Acts 2:16-21 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
. . . .


Certainly it is to be fulfilled in the end of time when with a great light the "everlasting Gospel goes out to the whole world" according to Rev 14:6-7."

GE:
The 'end-time event pointed to' was (is), Christ's 'first coming' - His incarnate life on earth. Eeasy, feasable, convincing, comforting, re-assuring, divine 'stuff' ... as for me at least.

 

[Claudia_T]

"I Beheld," says the prophet Daniel, "till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him; thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the Judgment was set, and the books were opened." "And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away." [DAN. 7:9, 10, 13, 14.]

Thus was presented to the prophet's vision the opening of the investigative Judgment. The coming of Christ here described is not his second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of days in Heaven to receive dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, which will be given him at the close of his mediatorial work. It is this coming, and not his second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days, in 1844. Attended by a cloud of heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies, and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of his ministration in behalf of man,--to perform the work of investigative Judgment, and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.

 

[Claudia_T]

CT:
"Yes Jesus did say these things, to let His Disciples know when the end was near:"

GE:
Jesus uttered no dates. He made no associations with an obscure judgemental process. This is, 'making stuff up' (as one ofter reads on the Board).

well of course He didnt utter any dates

why do you think He said when you see these things coming,,, know the time is near

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It is most common among date-setters - not only among SDAs - to refer to 'sign-proofs' like wars and natural calamaties for Jesus' Second Coming or for events preceding it. But they invariably just ignore dead His words: "IT IS THE END NOT YET!"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

well of course He didnt utter any dates

why do you think He said when you see these things coming,,, know the time is near

ge:
Yes, the time is near for His Return - and the Judgement; not for some kind of prelude-judgment.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"I Beheld," says the prophet Daniel, "till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him; thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the Judgment was set, and the books were opened." "And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away." [DAN. 7:9, 10, 13, 14.]

Thus was presented to the prophet's vision the opening of the investigative Judgment. The coming of Christ here described is not his second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of days in Heaven to receive dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, which will be given him at the close of his mediatorial work. It is this coming, and not his second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days, in 1844. Attended by a cloud of heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies, and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of his ministration in behalf of man,--to perform the work of investigative Judgment, and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.

GE:
How you 'make stuff up'! it's incredible!
See my post to BR above, 212.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24

32 ""Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33 So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

There are sooo many entertaining ways to close your eyes against this truth of scripture -- it truly is not funny.

in Christ,

Bob