-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
More Seventh-Day Adventists
- Thread starter Ed Edwards
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
(DHK makes some wild claim about Christ COMING with the clouds of heaven TO HEAVEN as a teachintg in Adventism)
Then Bob said --
If your argument is that Dan 7 is wrong and should not be used for doctrine -- then show your work instead of making stuff up. SDA doctrine by definition is a "bible question" to be proven or disproven -- by definition. Your attempts to make up wild stories not withstanding.
Dan 7
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
I think you should give it a shot- GO to Dan 7 and SHOW your exegetically sound review to be accurate rather then claiming success while showing nothing of the kind.
Ok so now we have the CLAIM for having done something that will hold water - now SHOW your work SHOW that the tie you want to make between Eph 2:19 and Dan 7 actually holds water.
in Christ,
Bob
Then Bob said --
If your argument is that Dan 7 is wrong and should not be used for doctrine -- then show your work instead of making stuff up. SDA doctrine by definition is a "bible question" to be proven or disproven -- by definition. Your attempts to make up wild stories not withstanding.
Dan 7
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
I think you should give it a shot- GO to Dan 7 and SHOW your exegetically sound review to be accurate rather then claiming success while showing nothing of the kind.
Ok so now we have the CLAIM for having done something that will hold water - now SHOW your work SHOW that the tie you want to make between Eph 2:19 and Dan 7 actually holds water.
in Christ,
Bob
Who saw this happen? It was a vision of Daniel. That much is true. But who saw the vision fulfilled? Did Ellen G. White? Not in your wildest dreams? If she claimed that she did, she fed you a bunch of lies, and you swallowed them hook line and sinker.Claudia_T said:
Who in the last two centuries has seen the Ancient of Days all clothed in white, his hair as pure wool, his throne as a fiery flame? You are deceived. You have no way of proving this.
Then you jump to the conclusion that this is the opening of the investigative judgement--a heresy that the Bible doesn't teach. From where do you get this heresy. It can only come from Ellen G. White. It is not taught in the Bible. There is nothing Biblical in what you have presented. You have perverted the Word of God.
Where have people seen such things in recent centuries. Prove your allegations.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Dan 7
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
Inch by inch DHK is making his way closer to the chapter of Daniel 7.
We see 4 world empires in Dan 7 and we are shown IN the chapter that BEFORE the 2nd coming AND AFTER the break up of the Pagan Roman empire a JUDGMENT even is SEEN to take place in heaven (Daniel is SEEING it in the case of Dan 7) and THAT judgment is based on things WRITTEN IN BOOKS ... "the books WERE OPENED and the court sat" -
Investigation done based on data - evidence - things written the books with the result being pre-second coming "Judgment was passed in FAVOR of the saints".
That is pre-Advent.
That is Investigative judgment.
Obviously.
you DO remember yourself admitting that the OT IS the Bible and IS part of "ALL SCRIPTURE" right? We don't have to go over that again do we? And you DO admit that Daniel is IN scripture? Right? What part are you not getting? This really is pretty simple so far.
And in Rev 14 we see the SAME thing while the saints and wicked are BOTH on the earth "THE hour of His Judgment HAS COME".
A time future to John's day.
In Christ,
Bob
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
Inch by inch DHK is making his way closer to the chapter of Daniel 7.
We see 4 world empires in Dan 7 and we are shown IN the chapter that BEFORE the 2nd coming AND AFTER the break up of the Pagan Roman empire a JUDGMENT even is SEEN to take place in heaven (Daniel is SEEING it in the case of Dan 7) and THAT judgment is based on things WRITTEN IN BOOKS ... "the books WERE OPENED and the court sat" -
Investigation done based on data - evidence - things written the books with the result being pre-second coming "Judgment was passed in FAVOR of the saints".
That is pre-Advent.
That is Investigative judgment.
Obviously.
you DO remember yourself admitting that the OT IS the Bible and IS part of "ALL SCRIPTURE" right? We don't have to go over that again do we? And you DO admit that Daniel is IN scripture? Right? What part are you not getting? This really is pretty simple so far.
And in Rev 14 we see the SAME thing while the saints and wicked are BOTH on the earth "THE hour of His Judgment HAS COME".
A time future to John's day.
In Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan said:
GE:
Just go read the two passages together, one after the other - perhaps a few times over, prayerfully, willing, meekly, seeking Christ in Scripture. the Word will do the rest. I, AM NOT ABLE TO GOD'S WORK.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And so events on earth are noted to progress to the point of this little horn power - speaking blasphemy. A power that comes out of the 10 horns and destroys 3 of them. It is an 11th.
Daniel shows "continuation" of the timeline "I kept looking".
Here we have a timeline sequence "I kept looking" - in which the judgment scene of heaven is setup after the 4th beast arises - comes to power, divides into 10 and has 3 of the 10 destroyed by "another power" - the 11th.. (So after the fall of the pagan Roman empire and the rise of ANOTHER empire)
We also have a courtroom with the “books opened” a judgment that is corporate, objective, external and based on the contents of the records - the facts recorded in the books. The books are opened and from that comes the judgment. Hence we have an “investigative” judgment of facts recorded in the books.
2Cor 5:10 confirms this judgment of deeds “whether they be good or evil”
2Cor 5
10 For [b]we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ[/b], so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.[/b]
...
Dan 7
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
Daniel continues to show the timeline such that the coming of Christ and the destruction of the little horn power are linked -- "I kept looking". Christ comes and is given a kingdom that will not pass away.
.
Dan 7
vs 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
Last edited by a moderator:
"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets He expounded unto them in ALL THE SCRIPTURES the things CONCERNING HIMSELF".
I don't find all those fancies of yours in Daniel 7, Bob; I only can see Jesus there.
I don't find all those fancies of yours in Daniel 7, Bob; I only can see Jesus there.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
hence my decision to actually post the text and SHOW my work IN the chapter and how it all fits together perectly.
Recall that in Matt 22 Christ SHOWS his work on the doctrine of the resurrection even though the respose from the Sadduccees is still "we won't see it we refuse to see your point"
Recall that in Matt 22 Christ SHOWS his work on the doctrine of the resurrection even though the respose from the Sadduccees is still "we won't see it we refuse to see your point"
Yes, very obviously--very obvious to Ellen G. White perhaps; but not obvious in Scripture. Show me one Scripture; one small tiny little verse that demonstrates the doctrine that you insert in the Bible and call "investigative judgement." This is a "woman made" doctrine; a heresy.BobRyan said:
Give me one good reason why any one reading this should believe in this heresy.
DHK said:
You have never read about the 2300 day prophecy? How we arrive at the 1844 date... and all of that?
I wouldnt waste time posting it myself because you seem very closed-minded and set on your accusations.
Honestly it seems that you are very accusatory toward the SDA Church and so there is no real chance of a fair dialogue here. And it would be a waste of time to try. But thats just my observation on it. You kinda need to be talking to someone who is really willing to listen and who has an open mind.
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
First we show IN THE TEXT of Dan 7 the doctrinal position of SDAs --
Quote:
Dan 7: vs 8 ""While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
And so events on earth are noted to progress to the point of this little horn power - speaking blasphemy. A power that comes out of the 10 horns and destroys 3 of them. It is an 11th.
Daniel shows "continuation" of the timeline "I kept looking".
Dan 7 vs 9 ""I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.
Here we have a timeline sequence "I kept looking" - in which the judgment scene of heaven is setup after the 4th beast arises - comes to power, divides into 10 and has 3 of the 10 destroyed by "another power" - the 11th.. (So after the fall of the pagan Roman empire and the rise of ANOTHER empire)
We also have a courtroom with the “books opened” a judgment that is corporate, objective, external and based on the contents of the records - the facts recorded in the books. The books are opened and from that comes the judgment. Hence we have an “investigative” judgment of facts recorded in the books.
2Cor 5:10 confirms this judgment of deeds “whether they be good or evil”
2Cor 5
10 For [b]we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ[/b], so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.[/b]
Dan 7
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
Daniel continues to show the timeline such that the coming of Christ and the destruction of the little horn power are linked -- "I kept looking". Christ comes and is given a kingdom that will not pass away.
.
Dan 7
vs 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
THEN DHK pretends not to have read the text of scripture at ALL!!
It is already been demonstrated by one glaringly obvious poster on this board that simply tossing out false accusations and turning a blind eye to the actual details IN the text for each point -- is NOT a compelling form of discussion, debate or dialog. RATHER it shows that the supposed arguments fell flat. And now DHK issues a false accusation only to see the text review above that it had no substance when confronted with the "inconvenient details" in the text. So NOW DHK you choose to proposal another wild "drag up Ellen White when my false accusations fail" tactic??? Why do that INSTEAD of providing a single compelling point? That tactic has already been shown to fail on this board.
how sad that your false accusation collapsed so quickly
In Christ,
Bob
Quote:
Dan 7: vs 8 ""While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
And so events on earth are noted to progress to the point of this little horn power - speaking blasphemy. A power that comes out of the 10 horns and destroys 3 of them. It is an 11th.
Daniel shows "continuation" of the timeline "I kept looking".
Dan 7 vs 9 ""I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.
Here we have a timeline sequence "I kept looking" - in which the judgment scene of heaven is setup after the 4th beast arises - comes to power, divides into 10 and has 3 of the 10 destroyed by "another power" - the 11th.. (So after the fall of the pagan Roman empire and the rise of ANOTHER empire)
We also have a courtroom with the “books opened” a judgment that is corporate, objective, external and based on the contents of the records - the facts recorded in the books. The books are opened and from that comes the judgment. Hence we have an “investigative” judgment of facts recorded in the books.
2Cor 5:10 confirms this judgment of deeds “whether they be good or evil”
2Cor 5
10 For [b]we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ[/b], so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.[/b]
Dan 7
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
Daniel continues to show the timeline such that the coming of Christ and the destruction of the little horn power are linked -- "I kept looking". Christ comes and is given a kingdom that will not pass away.
.
Dan 7
vs 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
THEN DHK pretends not to have read the text of scripture at ALL!!
It is already been demonstrated by one glaringly obvious poster on this board that simply tossing out false accusations and turning a blind eye to the actual details IN the text for each point -- is NOT a compelling form of discussion, debate or dialog. RATHER it shows that the supposed arguments fell flat. And now DHK issues a false accusation only to see the text review above that it had no substance when confronted with the "inconvenient details" in the text. So NOW DHK you choose to proposal another wild "drag up Ellen White when my false accusations fail" tactic??? Why do that INSTEAD of providing a single compelling point? That tactic has already been shown to fail on this board.
how sad that your false accusation collapsed so quickly
In Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Claudia_T said:
no need to go to Dan 8 on this one... DHK is denying the plain teaching of Dan 7 -- in his efforts to pretend that ELLEn White wrote Dan 7's statemetns about the Judgment scene in heaven and the Son of Man going to the Ancient of Days in that judgment scene that uses BOOKS and the things written in those books to conclude for "Judgment passed in FAOVR of the Saints" Dan 7:22.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:
GE:
Are you trying to explain your 'investigative judgment' doctrine with this?
CT:
"How we arrive at the 1844 date... "
GE:
Claudia, wakey wakey!
You should know how this subject has become highly debatable among your Church people themselves, and how many at this moment are actually leaving your 'movement', because they can no longer stand the embarrasment this issue has caused them.
You arrive at the 1844 date, in the first place, by combining into a unit, two different prophecies from Daniel, which are IMPOSSIBLE to combine. Fail the combination, fail the rest of your method and conclusion. So it's not actually necessary to argue any further than the question of this combination. The myriad of following questions may all be prevented.
Only prove the combining of the Daniel 7 and 9 prophecies, then we MAY have a look further.
A priori the whole scheme is doomed.
"How we arrive at the 1844 date... "
GE:
Claudia, wakey wakey!
You should know how this subject has become highly debatable among your Church people themselves, and how many at this moment are actually leaving your 'movement', because they can no longer stand the embarrasment this issue has caused them.
You arrive at the 1844 date, in the first place, by combining into a unit, two different prophecies from Daniel, which are IMPOSSIBLE to combine. Fail the combination, fail the rest of your method and conclusion. So it's not actually necessary to argue any further than the question of this combination. The myriad of following questions may all be prevented.
Only prove the combining of the Daniel 7 and 9 prophecies, then we MAY have a look further.
A priori the whole scheme is doomed.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
[/quote]Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Nope --
for the investigative judgment I go to the BOOKS OPENED in JUDGMENT in Dan 7 as it is desribed as taking place PRE-2nd coming.
The text above was to show that Christ INSTRUCTS us to BE INFORMED about the times in which we live. Another point of scripture DHK was challenging.
in Christ,
Bob
Ja, its doomed long before the linking of the two prophecies, because the whole idea of the 'investigative judgment' is based upon a total misconception of Jesus' Priesthood and intercession.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Less story telling more fact please.
Dan 7 and 8 are SHOWN to be linked EVEN in the NIV study Bible -- how is it you keep blaming SDAs for what EVERYONe can see??!!
Dan 8 and 9 are linked in that there is ONLY ONE vision that Daniel was in distress over asking for explanation.
Just stating the obvious.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Less story telling - more fact please.
the Daniel 7 "inconvenient details" were already highlighted... shall we see them again?
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=933432&postcount=227
Nope --
for the investigative judgment I go to the BOOKS OPENED in JUDGMENT in Dan 7 as it is desribed as taking place PRE-2nd coming.
The text above was to show that Christ INSTRUCTS us to BE INFORMED about the times in which we live. Another point of scripture DHK was challenging.
in Christ,
Bob[/quote]
GE:
Alright, no, speaking for myself and for nobody else, I also believe in the SOON coming of Jesus. So did my dad - always believed he would meet his Maker before he died. O Jesus come quickly!
for the investigative judgment I go to the BOOKS OPENED in JUDGMENT in Dan 7 as it is desribed as taking place PRE-2nd coming.
The text above was to show that Christ INSTRUCTS us to BE INFORMED about the times in which we live. Another point of scripture DHK was challenging.
in Christ,
Bob[/quote]
GE:
Alright, no, speaking for myself and for nobody else, I also believe in the SOON coming of Jesus. So did my dad - always believed he would meet his Maker before he died. O Jesus come quickly!