Music in Fundamental Churches

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Another thread broached this fascinating topic. I am not posting this in the music ministry forum because I would like to see the discussion limited to Fundamentalist Baptists.

I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist. My msic style is very conservative. Saying that, I am not bound to the major IFB music centres or ministries.

I am well aware of Dr Garlock's philosophy of music listed below. I do not want nor will I as moderator allow any kind of attack on Dr Garlock in this thread.

I heard these same things at one of his seminars.

Some music has melody as its dominant component, and is, therefore, melody-based.

Some music has harmony as its dominant component, and is, therefore, harmony-based.

And some music has rhythm as its dominant component, and is, therefore, rhythm-based.

Melody-based music feeds the spiritual side of our being most, our mind less, and our flesh even less.

Harmony-based music feeds the mind most, the spiritual, not so much, but the flesh more than melody-based music does.

Rhythm-based music feeds the flesh first and foremost, the mind to a small degree, and the spiritual side of our makeup starves and grows weak.

I am mostly interested in a proper discussion of the last point. Does the Bible specifically teach that rhythm based music feeds the flesh? Does the Bible teach that rhythm based music causes our spiritual side to starve and grow weak? What Bible basis do we have for that argument?

Lets stick to a Bible discussion and leave the emotions out.

 

[rbell]

I would encourage anyone to research the Greek mathematician/philosopher Pythagoras and see what he had to say on the subject.

Then, one would understand the source of this belief. It is in proto-platonic philosophy, not Scripture.

The proponents of Garlock's view inevitably engage in circular arguments. Without proving their de facto assumption of Scriptural prohibitions of "evil rhythms," a subdued melody, a dissonant or overbearing harmony, etc., they move to the talking point of, "Since these things are evil..."

In other words, they say, "Scripture says, 'Don't be worldly.' Since this music is worldly, it is sin.' " They haven't shown the first assumption to be true.

Furthermore...Gothard et al makes the assertion that the pinnacle of music is Renaissance music. How, then, did "Biblical" music manage to not be "up to par?"

Furthermore...Let's just suppose that rhythm does appeal to the "sinful nature." Then would it not stand to reason that the best music would have no rhythm at all? Yet that is not possible...because all music has movement (sound) in time.

Also, the arguments cannot be reconciled with Scriptures such as...

And Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took the timbrel in her hand, and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dancing. And Miriam answered them, "Sing to the Lord, for He is highly exalted; The horse and his rider He has hurled into the sea." (Exo 15:20-21)

Let them praise His name with dancing; Let them sing praises to Him with timbrel and lyre. (Psa 149:3)

Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. (Psa 150:4)

So...as we see, there is a rhetorical/logical problem with Garlock's assertion; a practical problem with it; and a Scriptural problem with it.

I do not doubt Garlock's love for the Lord, and his passion for Christian living...but even well-meaning individuals can engage in faulty thought processes and systems.

 

[Jon-Marc]

If music is dead and lifeless for fear of having a "rhythm" then that music does nothing for me. While I can enjoy a slow song with a good message in it, a steady diet of that kind of music doesn't stir me like lively southern gospel quartets.

I see nothing wrong with music with a rhythm. Without a rhythm, the music is just BLAH.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I see nothing wrong with music with a rhythm. Without a rhythm, the music is just BLAH.

Dr Garlock would agree - 100%. The issue is rhythm dominated music. The question is - "Is that biblically an issue?"

 

[Dale-c]

I took a semester in College using Dr. Garlock's book as a text book.

I have also been to a couple of his seminars and I got the chance to meet him personally and I think he is a very likable person.
He does not use ad hominem etc.

I studied his views in agreement but over time I realized that there was simply no biblical support for what he was saying.

He had to resort to secular and scientific means to make a moral point.

I have very conservative leanings with music. I do not care for the doctrine found in the majority of "CCM" but I fear that the majority of IFB people care more about style then substance.

They will often not be offended at a traditional song with questionable doctrine, but will object to a song with sound lyrics if they do not approve of the style.

To sum up, I tried to prove Garlock's points from the Bible. I simply could not do it.

 

[annsni]

I appreciate the opinions of everyone here. I agree that Scripture does not speak of music that is "wrong" and music that is "right". I do think there is theologically wrong or shallow songs in both CCM and in many hymnals and I know we are careful as to what we will play in church - and what we listen to at home. It's certainly not only the CCM realm.

 

[Dale-c]

very true ann.
We actually use the hymnal that Garlock's ministry produced and I still have to skip over alot of songs due to poor theology. Or just plain shallowness.

 

[Jim1999]

I find it hard to outright categorize the gospel songs of to-day, even some of the hymns of yesteryear.

I have heard some truly marvellous newer songs that sing of Christ and Christian living. I have also heard a number of modern songs that never even mention Jesus in person.

Then, there was the very popular song in secular circles, The Beautiful Isle of somewhere.......I thik that one took you nowhere and left you there.

I saw a well known gospel song writer and a group on the telly the other night and the pianist couldn't even stay on the bench...The song didn't matter to me...he was in pure theatrics!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[swaimj]

Melody-based music feeds the spiritual side of our being most, our mind less, and our flesh even less.

Harmony-based music feeds the mind most, the spiritual, not so much, but the flesh more than melody-based music does.

Rhythm-based music feeds the flesh first and foremost, the mind to a small degree, and the spiritual side of our makeup starves and grows weak.

Nice swaimj simply asks, "what is the biblical basis for these statements?'

Dogmatic swaimj simply states "there is no biblical basis for these statements. Garlock is welcome to his opinion but its a shame that so many have become dogmatic about a music philosophy that has no biblical basis."

If someone can answer the former question, I will retract the latter statement.

 

[Jim1999]

If we wanted to be biblical, I suppose we would join the early churches in chanting the Psalms...

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Dale-c]

Nice swaimj simply asks, "what is the biblical basis for these statements?'

Dogmatic swaimj simply states "there is no biblical basis for these statements. Garlock is welcome to his opinion but its a shame that so many have become dogmatic about a music philosophy that has no biblical basis."

Same conclusion I came to.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Thank You Roger

Bro.Roger, Thank you for starting this thread as I will be watching it with great interest. I am a very musically oriented guy and have had no small struggle for quite a few years with this issue. I was saved in 1977,live in the Greenville,SC area and was a member of the church (now defunct Southside Baptist Church) where Dr. Garlock,Ron Hamilton(who married Dr.G's daughter Shelly)ministered. As you can guess,I've been hearing this kind of teaching for years and I love good Gospel music of many types. My dilemma is that I've also "partaken" of some music that leans toward CCM musically speaking but I also came out of (before being saved) a classic rock background and much of the CCM seems to be rooted more in Rock or Pop music than doctrinally sound Biblically based music. I frequently find myself "conflicted" over music and to complcate the matter I now attend a conservative Southern Baptist church that leans somewhat toward the contemporary side. They sing and play some choir music that just leaves me cold inside. Yet, much of the Bob Jones type of music has an air of sameness or even lifelessness to it. I believe that Dr. Garlock's heart was in the right place trying to establish a sane standard for godly music even if he can't quote chapter and verse to back it up. I find myself coming to the conclusion that in everything we say and do an even in the music we listen to and embrace that we should give God the "benefit of the doubt" and reject what we know the world would seek after or regard as OK. I look forward to the day when we will sing heavenly music in the presence of our loving Saviour....oh what a day THAT will be !

Greg Perry Sr.:saint:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

If one wants to err on the side of caution, or has was just expressed, give God the benefit of the doubt and keep music totally different from the world, than our liberty in Christ allows that option.

I prefer church music on the conservative side of the spectrum.I do give a little more variance in my choice for personal music. I do 'feel better' about conservative music in church, but I winder sometimes if that is because all I have known for church music since I was saved (35 years ago Thursday).

If there were Biblical evidence for the melody/harmony/rhythm concept it would be easy. Hence the reason for this thread.

I like Dr Garlock. He is a godly, personable guy. I don't question his motives, I just have not seen the scripture to back up this particular philosophy, even though I like the idea of it. .

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

You might want to read the book, The Music of Jubal, it has a lot of Scripture referring to music, both sensual and spiritual rhythms.

I have often heard that the sensual beat of a song goes against the heartbeat, while the spiritual beat of a song is in tune with the heartbeat.

 

[rbell]

I have often heard that the sensual beat of a song goes against the heartbeat, while the spiritual beat of a song is in tune with the heartbeat.

Sue, I know your heart (no pun intended...get it? heart? ), but the heartbeat myth is an absolute fairy tale. No scientific evidence (along with other "scientific claims" often used by sites such as av1611.org, etc.) exists. This is one of those urban legends that has been around for years.

Furthermore...if that were true, then 3/4, 6/8, 9/8, and 5/4 music would be evil (or at least harmful) by definition.

Come to think of it...5/4 music just might. :laugh:

 

[SBCPreacher]

Come to think of it...5/4 music just might. :laugh:

You've got a point there!

 

[Dale-c]

I prefer church music on the conservative side of the spectrum.I do give a little more variance in my choice for personal music. I do 'feel better' about conservative music in church, but I winder sometimes if that is because all I have known for church music since I was saved (35 years ago Thursday).

If there were Biblical evidence for the melody/harmony/rhythm concept it would be easy. Hence the reason for this thread.

I like Dr Garlock. He is a godly, personable guy. I don't question his motives, I just have not seen the scripture to back up this particular philosophy, even though I like the idea of it. .

You seem to be down the same road as me.

I am very uncomfortable with anything other than conservative music in church, though I am not so "conservative" in music for entertainment anymore.

The only scripture I have seen to prove any of this does not really prove anything and is usually nothing but eisegesis not exegesis of scripture.

 

[Dale-c]

I have often heard that the sensual beat of a song goes against the heartbeat, while the spiritual beat of a song is in tune with the heartbeat.

One thing that has always bothered me about Garlock's presentation has been that he seems to put a lot of stock in the opinion of secular scientists as if they somehow are an authority on the matter.

But then secular scientists often say we evolved and deny a God at all so why do we trust them here?

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Gregory,

what is "doctrinally sound Biblically based music."?

 

[Dale-c]

Gregory,

what is "doctrinally sound Biblically based music."?

Yeah for that matter there is a lot of music in the hymnal that is conservative in style that is lousy in doctrine.