Music in Latin and such...

Scott, do you speak in tongues. Tell me you are not seriously suggesting that we should have singing in a foreign language within our church services. Please

 

LATIN TEXT
O magnum mysterium
et admirabile sacramentum,
ut animalia viderent Dominum natum,
jacentem in præsepio.
Beata virgo, cujus viscera meruerunt
portare Dominum Christum, Alleluia!

ENGLISH TRANSLATION:
O great mystery
and awe-inspiring sacrament,
that animals would see the
newborn Jesus sleeping in their trough.
Blessed be the Virgin Mary,
whose loins were worthy to bear Christ the Lord,
Alleluia.


Scott, I LOVE MORTEN LAURIDSEN'S MUSIC! It's incredible in a way that is so unlike much of the 20th-21st Century classical music. Some of the most wonderful worship songs that have ever been written were in the first centuries of church music... and all for the longest time were written in Latin (the language of the church.)

As much as I would like to use some of this music with my choir, much of it is technically very difficult, even without the language barrier. So unfortunately, I don't see a time in the near future when I could see Faure's Requiem done in my Baptist church.

As far as it being "tongues" or inappropriate, I find this a narrow-minded view. I believe that many alternative communication could be used in a worship setting, if proper translation was given for those who don't understand. Some of the most reverent and worshipful times I have had in worship were to a hymn or worship song or CCM song sung and signed at the same moment.

Scott, I have Morten Lauridsen's Los Angeles Symphony Chorus CD with everything he had written up to that time... including "O magnum mysterium". Not only is it astounding music, but I feel that the composer's heart is evident in the chords and phrases.

Thanks for bringing him up! I didn't know anyone else loved his music like I do. Just my humble opinion.

In His Grip,
joshua

 

I've never heard of him, Scott. What kind of music is it?

I think singing in other languages is great.

Here in the greater Phildelphia area, we have a lot of non-English speakers in our community. This includes in our churches.

Because Enda is not from here, he may not realize how big an issue this is in urban areas.

We have a Baptist church here that caters to the Spanish speaking community, one for Ukranians speakers (we have a lot of Ukranian refugees here) and one for Koreans.


I've only had two semesters of Spanish, but it's been my great pleasure to have the chance to speak to people about el amor y la tolerancia de nuestro Señor Jesús Cristo in their own tongue.

I even got to sing "Amor Conquista Todos" in Spanish for a Spanish speaking congregation (they were very gracious about my lousy Spanish, by the way).

I think it's a great idea and, as more and more non-English speaking immigrants come here, we're only going to see more and more of it.

 

Fair enough point, I have no objection to immigrants singing in their own language. I wouldn't imagine though that there would be many Latin speakers wondering into the church unless you get a bus load of disallusioned priests.

 

God bless you, Enda.

I'm praying for you.

 

Mike, that was an honest attempt at humour, i'm not being provocative here. Please, for the sake of other people reading this just try to exercise a little charity. You truly grieve the Spirit.

Joshua,

I take your point about people being told the meaning of the lyrics, which is vital I would say. But I'm sure you know that I am opposed special singing by conviction. I believe that everyone should partake in the worship and honestly believe that this can only occur in congregational singing.

I would also suggest that the lyric you quoted has a very Roman Catholic sound to it. Is it a Catholic song?

 

I'm deeply sorry if anything I've said here has offended you.

The Bible says to pray for one another and I'm praying for you.

All I meant to do was offer an encouraging word to let you know that I was praying for you but I apologize if it came across differently.

 

I appreciate that, lets move on.

 

I do not mean to sound mean here, so forgive me if it comes out that way.

But isn't it much simplier to worship and sing praises to God in our native tongues (Languages), So that all can sing and know what they are singing.

When I am singing to the Lord, I should know what exactly it is I am singing. When I am praying, I should know exactly what it is I am praying. Why add all the complications.

Jesus spoke easy; simple words. Nothing fancy or showy. God made a way for all men to come to him. Why does man want to complicate, and add confusion to it.

Sherrie

 

Funny story...

I hit the reply button here, was just about to start typing, then remembered Elisheva Shomron's Kadosh...

Kadosh kadosh kadosh
Adonai Elohim tz'va'ot

Asher hayah
V'hoveh v'yavo

I have been debating wether or not to ask Pastor if he thinks it could be added to the "play-list" ...So there goes another smart reply out the window for me huh

I haven't heard Morten Lauridsen, but if that "Blessed be the Virgin Mary, whose loins were worthy to bear Christ the Lord" translation is accurate I would have to pass on it.

Pete

 

When I sing a song in church...congregational singing...Just because you say this is what it is....I am only singing what I know to be so.

Ava Maria....its real pretty when you hear it. But when you really know whats going on...it is not pretty. It is not something I would sing to my Father.


Just because the music leader likes fancy-smancy, and things sound really great, does not always make for a good worship. Singing songs to God is important. It should be from inside you. Not a show.

If you (not you personaly) like a song that is in a foreign language and you understand it, and you want to sing it, go ahead. But you should not expect others to, just because you said this is so.

I also could understand a spanish group of people going to church, and the church having spanish songs to sing.

But I must agree, No one speaking Latin only will be coming.

God Bless
Sherrie

 

True, it does have a Catholic flavor. That may come from the fact that 1) it's in Latin, and 2) the text is as old as the Gregorian chants of the early church.

I think one of the "snags" to the Latin, is that so many people are hung up (especially in the Baptist church it seems) about Mary. I believe that Mary was a human being. That she sinned, and that she was (obviously) no longer a virgin after her other children were born.

BUT... The translation was "Blessed be the Virgin Mary, whose loins were worthy to bear Christ the Lord." I believe this is merely a Scriptural statement, and not a "Catholic" thing or a "non-Catholic" thing.

"Blessed be the Virgin Mary." Scripture says she was a virgin. (Luke 1:34) Scripture says that she was blessed and highly favored. (Luke 1:28-30, 42) I think the "loins" part makes us uncomfortable, but that may be just a cultural thing.

As far as singing Latin in church, I think some churches could and do use Latin in church in worship. In fact, my last church had Mozart and William Byrd Latin motets in the choir library! (And no, they were doing these things long before I started serving there... I did not impose my heathenistic classical teaching on these poor, innocent folks HAHA! ) They were quite used to singing classical music, and that included Latin and sometimes German texts. True, not every church is like this, and I would say that this is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination. But that does not make it wrong or inappropriate, just unique.

Sherrie, it's good to see you back. Come more often!

In His Grip,
joshua

 

There is some really wonderful music out there that was written by composers whose native language was not English - and we are doing ourselves a great disservice by never using it simply because we don't speak that language! That being said, most of the music under discussion has been translated into English equivalents, which should be acceptable to all but the most rabid of purists. As a singer myself, it is important to me to know what I am singing - I can fake Latin with the best of them, but don't have a clue what it means so I NEED the translations!

It is very hard for a congregation to follow and sing something in a language they do not know, so for congregational music I really feel that an English translation is crucial. When you are talking about a choir or other vocalists, if a written translation can be easily provided to the listeners then to me it seems acceptable to perform the work in the original language (if you can persuade the singers to learn how to pronounce it correctly - I really despise singing in German, for instance, and can't seem to get it right).

I occasionally sing "Panis Angelicus", and use an English translation with this wording:

O Lord most holy;
O Lord most holy;
O loving Father, Thee would we be praising always.
Help us to know Thee, know Thee and love Thee;
Father, Father, grant us thy truth and grace;
Father, Father, guide and defend us.
Rule Thou our wilful hearts,
Keep Thee our wand'ring thoughts;
In all our sorrows let us find our rest in Thee;
And in temptations hour,
Save through thy mighty pow'r,
Thine aid O send us;
Hear us in mercy,
Show us Thy favor,
So shall we live, and sing praise to Thee.

I truly do not know of another song that has lyrics any more appropriate for us to praise our Father. Every time I sing this song, I feel closer to God - and my hope is that this feeling is transmitted to those who are listening.

Ruth

 

Joshua, it's not the "loins" part as much as the "worthy" part that makes me uncomfortable. Being RC up until 3 years ago I know what they mean when they say Mary was Blessed/Worthy etc.

Mary herself said, Luke 1 :48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden...

I think it is clear that Mary did not consider herself to be worthy of this great honour.

But I suppose thats a different issue anyway, just thought I'd explain why I brought that up.

With regars to the music and the language issue the only thing I would add is ....

1 Cor 14: 14-17

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the understanding also.
Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
For thou verily giveth thanks well but the other is not edified.

v 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

I'm sorry Joshua but I just cannot see how you can disregard the principle that Paul applies here, never mind accusing me of being narrow minded. I'm not trying to be awkward I just disagree with Scott's proposal and like Sherrie I can't see how worship would be improved in any way other than aesthetically (which is not what God requires of us) by introducing a language which is not understood by the congregation.

I don't feel I'm being unreasonable here, don't take it personally.

I'm not accusing anyone of sin here, just asking you to consider the issue from a Scriptural viewpoint rather than just looking at it from an aesthetic perspective. No doubt many of these songs/hymns are beutiful to listen to, I just don't think that is how we are to judge wheather something is appropriate or not.

Would you agree with any of that?

 

Hello Everyone!

My church has done the Durufle',Faure',and Mozart Requiems as part of our Palm Sunday liturgy. The Latin texts are printed in ther bulletin,along with their English translations so that all can follow along. We usually have an orchestra,large SATB choir(50+ voices),and soloists for these services.

Also,from time to time,our choir will sing some ancient plainchant pieces for the offeratory as well as sacred pieces written by Handel,
Mendelsohn,Bach,Mozart,etc.

As for Latin being a "strange tongue",medicine and law use it fairly heavily,as does biology.

Here are some other Requiems to check out: Brahms,John Rutter's,Andrew Lloyd-Webber's.

In Christ,
Dale