My experience at a revival - Baptism of Holy Spirit? Please Help!

[Rando76]

I'm sorry I started a debate, but this is all great information to me and I truly appreciate it.

She said that she just started speaking in another language that she had never learned. It was a complete surprise to her.

This is how the Pentecostal friend of mine described his experience. He said it was completely unplanned and he was surprised when it happened.

When I was discussing this with him, he mentioned that at some big event (I don't know what), multiple people from multiple countries spoke in tongues. After the event, the were surprised that they could speak each others language, when they really couldn't (but they understood each other). He told me this was a documented case. I don't know the when, what, or where - it's just something he told me in conversation. Although, I can ask him if need be.

It is true that the things I have been taught have all been Baptist based. I guess that's why I turned to a Baptist board with these questions. I realize that if I had been raised in a Pentecostal church, that I would think it was normal. Perhaps that is why I am confused. Really, I'm just trying to set all denominations aside at this point and let God guide me to the truth. I know that this is just one of many things that will come up. However, it seems to me that this is a such a large issue since it divides so many churches. That seems so unfortunate to me since we are all worshiping the same God.

1 Corinthians 13:10 is confusing to me:

1 Corinthians 13:8-12

13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

13:10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

13:11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully know

I've heard different interpretations on this - perfection is the Bible, perfection refers to when we are shed of sin before God, perfection refers to the return of Jesus.
Is this the only scripture that can define whether the gifts have ceased? Are there others?

I realize that this has turned to a tongues thread, which wasn't my intention. But it is also part of what I'm confused about.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

But what about praying in tongues only to GOD?

If one is praying in tongues to God, it is to God. If one is within hearing range of the one speaking in an unknown tongure to God, there is of necessity to be an interpreter. That interpreter must interpret the tongue in the manner it is given... it was given to God. So the interpretation would have to be to God.

 

[xdisciplex]

If one is praying in tongues to God, it is to God. If one is within hearing range of the one speaking in an unknown tongure to God, there is of necessity to be an interpreter. That interpreter must interpret the tongue in the manner it is given... it was given to God. So the interpretation would have to be to God.

Eh?
But why does there have to be an interpreter? God understands the secrets of the Holy Spirit. When a person prays in tongues then it's the Holy Spirit who basically prays secret stuff. Why should it be interpreted? This is simply a help. A person might not know what to pray for and then the Holy Spirit can tell her what to pray. This is how I understand it.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

There must needs be an interpreter because as verse 2 says, man does not understand the unknown tongue.

That is why if one speaks the unknown tongue loud enough to be heard of others there must be an interpreter... so as not to cause confusion.

 

[Jack Matthews]

I'm sorry I started a debate, but this is all great information to me and I truly appreciate it.



This is how the Pentecostal friend of mine described his experience. He said it was completely unplanned and he was surprised when it happened.

When I was discussing this with him, he mentioned that at some big event (I don't know what), multiple people from multiple countries spoke in tongues. After the event, the were surprised that they could speak each others language, when they really couldn't (but they understood each other). He told me this was a documented case. I don't know the when, what, or where - it's just something he told me in conversation. Although, I can ask him if need be.

It is true that the things I have been taught have all been Baptist based. I guess that's why I turned to a Baptist board with these questions. I realize that if I had been raised in a Pentecostal church, that I would think it was normal. Perhaps that is why I am confused. Really, I'm just trying to set all denominations aside at this point and let God guide me to the truth. I know that this is just one of many things that will come up. However, it seems to me that this is a such a large issue since it divides so many churches. That seems so unfortunate to me since we are all worshiping the same God.

1 Corinthians 13:10 is confusing to me:

1 Corinthians 13:8-12

13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

13:10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

13:11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully know

I've heard different interpretations on this - perfection is the Bible, perfection refers to when we are shed of sin before God, perfection refers to the return of Jesus.
Is this the only scripture that can define whether the gifts have ceased? Are there others?

I realize that this has turned to a tongues thread, which wasn't my intention. But it is also part of what I'm confused about.

The reference to perfection coming, and the imperfect ceasing is not a reference to the canon of scripture. If that were the case, to correctly apply the scripture that way would mean the cessation of knowledge and prophecy as well. Not the case here.

The context of the whole passage is the concept of love. Paul is speaking of perfect love, agape, in Christ. It's a reference to Christ's return.

 

[Amy.G]

"What shall we say brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God." I Cor. 14:26-28 NIV

Questions--

1. When your church gets together for worship, does everyone have a leadership role in it, that falls into one of these categories? And we're not just talking about singing the hymns, this isn't talking about just singing along, it's talking about having a hymn, which implies originating one, and leading it. If everyone in your church isn't doing one of these five things during worship, you're either out of scriptural compliance, or there must be another acceptable application of these verses.

2. Isn't speaking to God prayer? So, if a person is gifted with tongues, and there isn't an interpreter present, aren't they speaking mysteries to God, the Spirit is taking over for them and they are praying in a private prayer language?

3. There isn't a scripture anywhere in the New Testament that supports the doctrine of cessation. But there is I Corinthians 14:39-40, Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. So what would you do if there was someone gifted with tongues in your service, and there was an interpreter present?

Having said that, the issue here wasn't tongues, but an individual named Rando who wondered whether a physical experience he had was related to the experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit during a revival service he had attended. I've not seen any evidence that his experience could not have been the result of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit is certainly powerful enough to cause a physical reaction. In John 18, when Jesus was arrested, and the guards said they were looking for Jesus of Nazareth, he spoke the words "I am he" and the guards fell to the ground. When Annanias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit, they fell down dead. There are many instances of healings, and other miraculous signs and wonders associated with the movement of the Holy Spirit. Look what happened when Phillip preached in Samaria. When the laying on of hands brought the Holy Spirit to the believers there, something visible must have happened to convince Simon the Sorcerer that he could receive the power from Peter and John. And I just can't find that verse anywhere that says, "But this is only going to last until the scripture is canonized, and then it will cease because you will have written words and won't need the miracles, signs and wonders any more."

Rando, consider this. God is using his Holy Spirit to speak to you. Listen to what he is saying.

1. Yes. sometimes someone will get up and sing a hymn. Sometimes another will get up and praise God or speak whatever is on their heart. Neither is planned.

2. If there is tongues being spoken, I'm not aware of it.

3. If the Holy Spirit was to move in that way, I would praise Him for it. As far as cessation goes, that's a matter of interpretation. I believe it has, but God is still God and can do whatever He pleases to reveal Himself. The book of Acts is about the formation of the church and it is a time of transition. We cannot expect things to be exactly the same today as they were then. No one is being raised from the dead today for an example.

As I said earlier, there was no example of the Holy Spirit ever causing people to fall down or shake or tingle or any other physical manifestion after pentacost. Although, if a tongue of fire was to sit on my head, I might fall over. :laugh:

 

[xdisciplex]

There must needs be an interpreter because as verse 2 says, man does not understand the unknown tongue.

But the tongue is directed at God and as long as God understands it it is okay.
Or does God also need an interpreter?

 

[D28guy]

His Blood,

"If one is praying in tongues to God, it is to God."

Ok.

"If one is within hearing range of the one speaking in an unknown tongure to God, there is of necessity to be an interpreter."

Not if the person is not clearly giving a message TO...THE...ASSEMBLY. If someone is praying privately in a prayer language, then the thing to do is simply...leave...them...alone.

"That interpreter must interpret the tongue in the manner it is given... it was given to God. So the interpretation would have to be to God."

(((WHAT?????)))

You are saying that someone should interpret the tongues TO God, so that GOD CAN UNDERSTAND????

Amighty God needs an interpreter???

Stunned,

Mike

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

No, God does not need an interpreter. But those who would hear the one talking to God in an unknown tongue need to know what that person talking is saying so they are not confused.

Look, the Word of God says if one speaks in an unknown tongue there must be an interpreter. There must be an interpreter whether one is talking audibly to God or not.

Else it brings confusion.

 

[BobRyan]

:laugh:


It felt nothing like numbness - not like when your leg goes to sleep. There was no pinching, squeezing, or holding by anyone - and I was not sitting in any kind of contorted position. Believe me, I have thought of all these things. I wouldn't have posted a message if I could have explained it off with one of these. My wife and I have discussed this quite a bit.

You have raised 3 separate issues. I suggest making a study of each one.

#1. Has 1Cor 12 been abolished for Christians? According to Eph 4:1-10 the answer is no. It still applies. The PROOF is not "how many people do I know that are raising the dead" the Word of God stand without you having to have personnal knowledge of every Christian on the planet today to see if any of them have a spiritual gift listed in 1Cor 12. They are valid sir - the Word of God stand on that point.

#2. Is what passes today for tongues and spiritual gifts - legit? My suggestion is that a very close and detailed study of 1Cor 14 will prove to you that the common manifestations are all false. What is commonly practiced today is a counterfeit to the true gifts.

#3. What happens to a Christian when they go to a meeting where this counterfeit to true spiritual gifts is being practiced? That too is a good study... I do not think you were demon possessed or anything like that. But I would argue that it makes for a good Bible study.

My approach is consistent. People want to escape the problem of false gifts by attacking the true gifts of 1Cor 12... I never take that failed solution but I also don't go for the counterfeit gifts.

People want to escape from being Jews as we find in the OT and they do this by attacking the OT to say it no longer applies ... I never take that failed solution but I also don't claim that Gentiles have to convert to become Jews.

The are so many bible-benders out there wanting to solve problems by hacking and chopping some new section of scripture as "the big solution" -- I totally reject that model!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[D28guy]

His Blood,

"No, God does not need an interpreter. But those who would hear the one talking to God in an unknown tongue need to know what that person talking is saying so they are not confused."

But the situation we are speaking of here in NOT a message to the church. This is a person praying in a personal prayer language TO GOD.

It is this...

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries."

And...

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself"

And...

"What is the conclusion then? I will pray in the Spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the Spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding"

Regarding the others in the gathered assembly, the personal type of this praying is none of their buisiness.

It would be like saying that when YOU YOURSELF come into your place of fellowship one evening or morning and the pastor than asks you to stand and share everything you have prayed this week in the privacy of your "prayer closet" at home.

Thats nobodies buisiness but yours, and the same is true of the type of tongues we are discussing here.

Mike

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

If it is none of their business, then the one praying should not be praying loud enough for them to hear.

Also, as I pointed out, the Word of God says if tongues are spoken there is to be an interpreter.

Why do you think Paul said there must be an interpreter? So those who hear the tongues are not left in confusion.

Paul goes on to say God is not the author of confusion and that all things should be done decently and in order.

If there is no interpreter present who can correctly interpret the tongues, keep silent. In keeping silent, you will be keeping order.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV) For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. {understandeth: Gr. heareth}

1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV) He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corinthians 14:13 (KJV) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:14 (KJV) For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:19 (KJV) Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:27 (KJV) If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret. {two...: by two or three sentences separately}

Mike, I believe your version you are quoting is wrong. Yours leaves out the important word, 'unknown'.

If it were not incorrect, not one person would be allowed to speak any words at all in the assembly. I speak English fluently, which is a tongue or language.

 

[D28guy]

His Blood,

The version I use is the New King James Version which is a very highly respected version. But inserting the word "unknown" into the text as you have done I dont believe disturbs the teaching at all, nor the view that those who see it my way promote.

I dont have a problem with the "unknown"'s you've inserted at all. I dont think it causes any problem whatsoever for my side of this.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

His blood,

"If it is none of their business, then the one praying should not be praying loud enough for them to hear."

You've got to be kidding. Someone is quietly praying to Almighty God in a meeting, and they should be careful to make sure nobody, even someone right next to them, hears them?

Is this a church meeting, or a meeting of the "Atheists Anonymous" we are talking about? :laugh:

Mike

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Mike,

I did not insert the 'unknowns'. They are in the original King James. If the NKJV removed them, there is a problem.

Look at it again.

your version:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

My version:
1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV) For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. {understandeth: Gr. heareth}

I copied mine directly from the KJV. I did not insert the words. They are in brackets because they were inserted by the authors for clarity, not by me.

It does make a big difference. To just say tongue can mean any tongue... french, german, english, bantu, russian, etc., All these are known languages, not an unknown tongue.
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[D28guy]

....Accidental duplicate post. sorry

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

His blood,



You've got to be kidding. Someone is quietly praying to Almighty God in a meeting, and they should be careful to make sure nobody, even someone right next to them, hears them?

Is this a church meeting, or a meeting of the "Atheists Anonymous" we are talking about? :laugh:

Mike

It was Paul who wrote if one speaks in an unknown tongue let it be by two or three and let another interpret. If there be no interpreter present, let him be silent.

Dare you say Paul was wrong when he wrote this?

 

[D28guy]

His blood,

I know you didnt make up the insertion of the "unknown's". I knew that you got them from another translation, since that is what you said in your post.

Still, even so...it doesnt disturb my view at all.

Mike

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

His blood,

I know you didnt make up the insertion of the "unknown's". I knew that you got them from another translation, since that is what you said in your post.

Still, even so...it doesnt disturb my view at all.

Mike

It disturbs your view a lot. Let me use Paul and the language of his day.

Paul said in verse 2:
1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV) For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. {understandeth: Gr. heareth}

Now, that same verse in view of your version using Paul's language in place of tongue.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:2 For he who speaks in Greek does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

No one understands Greek? Does not make any sense. That is why the word 'unknown' was placed and truly fits in that verse.
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