"Never Saved To Begin With"

[pinoybaptist]

Charles, I hate sin. It is sickening to me to sin against my Lord and Savior, yet I will tell you that I have gotten angry and said something hurtful to someone that I love. This has happened since I became saved. I asked for their forgiveness and God's. Does this mean that I'm not saved because I sinned?

From what I'm getting here, sis Amy, you're kinda like a light bulb. On again, off again. You have like two states. You sin, you're off. You repent. You're on. Considering we have two natures, old and new in us, it looks like it's going to be a never ending process.

So now, when somebody dies, where he goes depends on his state at death. On ? Heaven. Off ? Hell. But wait, brain death comes a little later, maybe nano seconds. So one can physically die off, or 1, in processor language, and able to mentally repent and ask forgiveness, and goes back to on, or 0, set, in processor language.

I give up guys.

You all have a wonderful time figuring it out. As far as I'm concerned, I will trust in the finished work and the spilt blood of the Lamb of Glory, and confess all sin at night before I go to bed, and every waking moment, and ......

 

[Brother Bob]

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I personally think it goes on to tell you how you are delivered, and if we walk after the flesh we shall die.
Rom 7:25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1¶[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Brother Bob]

Pinoy;
You all have a wonderful time figuring it out. As far as I'm concerned, I will trust in the finished work and the spilt blood of the Lamb of Glory, and confess all sin at night before I go to bed, and every waking moment, and ......

Now that is what the Lord said to do. Pray always.

 

[Amy.G]

From what I'm getting here, sis Amy, you're kinda like a light bulb. On again, off again. You have like two states. You sin, you're off. You repent. You're on. Considering we have two natures, old and new in us, it looks like it's going to be a never ending process.

So now, when somebody dies, where he goes depends on his state at death. On ? Heaven. Off ? Hell. But wait, brain death comes a little later, maybe nano seconds. So one can physically die off, or 1, in processor language, and able to mentally repent and ask forgiveness, and goes back to on, or 0, set, in processor language.

I give up guys.

You all have a wonderful time figuring it out. As far as I'm concerned, I will trust in the finished work and the spilt blood of the Lamb of Glory, and confess all sin at night before I go to bed, and every waking moment, and ......

Hold you horses, Pinoy! I am not on again, off again. I was asking Charles a question to clarify what he believed.

 

[Iamodd4God]

You might have a point if it weren't for the fact that Paul speaks in the present tense.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

There is nothing to indicate that Paul was speaking of past sins.

That's a weak refute Amy. The apostle Paul also asked who will save him from this body of death, does that mean he didn't know how to be saved? HE also said that there is no condemnation to "THEM" that are in Christ. Do you believe that when he wrote that he was not in Christ?

Why do you reject God's Word? Don't you know your twisting of the Scriptures is going to lead to your own destruction? And before you say it is me who is twisting the Scriptures, and it is me who is going to be destroyed, think about who is teaching what...

I am teaching a no sin message, which is the message of the Bible; the message YOU and so many others reject. Is obeying the commandments an impossible task? If so, then why one earth would God make it our WHOLE duty?

Believe what you want, that is your choice.

In the name of Christ,

Ken

 

[Amy.G]

That's a weak refute Amy. The apostle Paul also asked who will save him from this body of death, does that mean he didn't know how to be saved? HE also said that there is no condemnation to "THEM" that are in Christ. Do you believe that when he wrote that he was not in Christ?

Why do you reject God's Word? Don't you know your twisting of the Scriptures is going to lead to your own destruction? And before you say it is me who is twisting the Scriptures, and it is me who is going to be destroyed, think about who is teaching what...

I am teaching a no sin message, which is the message of the Bible; the message YOU and so many others reject. Is obeying the commandments an impossible task? If so, then why one earth would God make it our WHOLE duty?

Believe what you want, that is your choice.

In the name of Christ,

Ken

Ken, you don't go in and out of Christ. Once you're in, you're in. He doesn't reject us when we sin or else would need to be saved everyday. Maybe you're capable of leading a sinless life, but I only know of one other who was able to do that and that was Christ.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Hold you horses, Pinoy! I am not on again, off again. I was asking Charles a question to clarify what he believed.

Oh, I'm sorry you misunderstood.
I didn't mean to say you were on again, off again.
I meant that it seems that is what appears from the arguments being presented by those you are discussing with.
Actually, I'm with you.
In Christ, always in Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

Oh, I'm sorry you misunderstood.
I didn't mean to say you were on again, off again.
I meant that it seems that is what appears from the arguments being presented by those you are discussing with.
Actually, I'm with you.
In Christ, always in Christ.

My bad (or dumb :laugh: )

Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: He doesn't reject us when we sin or else would need to be saved everyday.

HP: God does not meet out eternal punishment or rewards for the unsaved or those that have been saved and or have turned back to their old sinful habits and ways on a daily basis. There is a judgment to come when this life is over when the books shall be opened and everyman judged according to them. The question is not whether or not if one that has accepted Christ and fulfilled the conditions for salvation needs to be saved every day that he sins. The question is will I make heaven my home if I continue on the path that I am on, refusing to repent and to turn from ones sins?

Certainly there are those that have been saved, and those that are saved as we speak, but the question is will they find themselves with an Advocate at the judgment if they turn from their righteousness refusing to repent. Shall we allow Scripture to answer that question for us? Eze 18:26 “When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.”

 

[Amy.G]

HP: God does not meet out eternal punishment or rewards for the unsaved or those that have been saved and or have turned back to their old sinful habits and ways on a daily basis. There is a judgment to come when this life is over when the books shall be opened and everyman judged according to them. The question is not whether or not if one that has accepted Christ and fulfilled the conditions for salvation needs to be saved every day that he sins. The question is will I make heaven my home if I continue on the path that I am on, refusing to repent and to turn from ones sins?

Certainly there are those that have been saved, and those that are saved as we speak, but the question is will they find themselves with an Advocate at the judgment if they turn from their righteousness refusing to repent. Shall we allow Scripture to answer that question for us? Eze 18:26 “When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.”

I believe scripture has already answered that:


Hbr 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Hbr 12:9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
Hbr 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

 

[BobRyan]

In Heb 12 Paul writes to the living about their being under God's discipline in this life as God "prunes" and grows them in Christ (something we see Him doing in John 15:1-9 according to Christ).

But in John 15 we see not ONLY those who are being pruned but ALSO we see the case of those that reject that pruning process and are then severed from Christ, cast out - wither, die and are cast into the fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

In Heb 12 Paul writes to the living about their being under God's discipline in this life as God "prunes" and grows them in Christ (something we see Him doing in John 15:1-9 according to Christ).

But in John 15 we see not ONLY those who are being pruned but ALSO we see the case of those that reject that pruning process and are then severed from Christ, cast out - wither, die and are cast into the fire.

in Christ,

Bob

How sad to fear that Christ would cast you out.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[BobRyan]

Are you saying it would be better to Read John 6 than to read John 15??

How about reading both?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

HP: Posting three more Scriptures does not necessarily have anything to do with the content of the one I posted. It was clear and to the point. Why not address the verse I posted? Try to harmonize the one I pointed out with the ones you list. Simply overlooking one in favor of others is not harmonizing them together.

As for the one Amy posts, how does this verse indicate OSAS? (which is at the heart of this matter) It simply states that those who come to Him He will in no wise cast out, but does not preclude the possibility of one turning from Christ which would be going in a direction opposite of the way that they once came, therefore the promise would not apply to them for they are going away from, not traveling in a direction towards, Christ.

I have heard a lot concerning ‘continuous action verbs.’ Do you suppose one could be found in this passage that Amy posts?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Posting three more Scriptures does not necessarily have anything to do with the content of the one I posted. It was clear and to the point. Why not address the verse I posted? Try to harmonize the one I pointed out with the ones you list. Simply overlooking one in favor of others is not harmonizing them together.

As for the one Amy posts, how does this verse indicate OSAS? (which is at the heart of this matter) It simply states that those who come to Him He will in no wise cast out, but does not preclude the possibility of one turning from Christ which would be going in a direction opposite of the way that they once came, therefore the promise would not apply to them for they are going away from, not traveling in a direction towards, Christ.

I have heard a lot concerning ‘continuous action verbs.’ Do you suppose one could be found in this passage that Amy posts?

I have a hard time with the concept of "turning from Christ". Do you know of any scripture where someone has actually done this?

How does one who has the indwelling of God in them, turn away from God? Does God turn away from God?
This is like some on this board that claim a person can stop believing. I just find this to be one of those questions that has no answer because of it's impossibility.

 

[Amy.G]

Ken, if we become sinless after salvation, why does God need to discipline us?

Hbr 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Hbr 12:9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
Hbr 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

 

[LeBuick]

Sorry, didn't read carefully...

 

[Lacy Evans]

"Never-Saved-To-Begin-With" seems to me to be a cop out phrase, for Christians bent on getting out from under the warning/accountability passages.

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOR ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The "ye" in "Know ye not" are Corinthian Christians. Why would Paul address them with a warning that didn't apply to them?

Has anyone considered this question?

What if the phrase, "Shall not inherit the Kingdom of God" doesn't mean "saved"? What if it means, "Shall not inherit the Kingdom of God"

Ac 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 22:28-29
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

1 Cor. 6:9-10 is speaking of anyone include us who doing practically wicked life, shall not enter into eternal life, go into everlasting fire. Clearly explain in Rev. 22:14-15. Verse 14 tells us, blessed for a person who keep the commandments shall enter into eternal life with Christ. But, next verse 15 says, these who do practically evil things shall be punishment in the everlasting fire. Very clear and plain, there is no temporaily or "purgatory" exclusion doctrine in the Bible.

God knows we are all human, we all have flesh and old nature in our own body. Because we all received it from Adam - Romans 5:12. We cannot be expecting to be sinless and perfection life all the way to death. Impossible for us to be perfect without commit one sin all the way throughout till our death.

But, God expects us that, we ought to walk in the light daily, to keep our life to be holy, because he is holy - 1 Peter 1:13-16. Verse 13 says, we must hold fast our hope of salvation, be sober, and our hope of eternal life(Titus 1:2; 2:13('blessed hope'); and 3:7.

Also, God is discipling us in our lifetime(Hebrews chapter 12), that we should maturing in Christ to be like Christ's daily.

And we should continue confess our sins to Christ faithfully - 1 John 1:9.

What if we do not do practically holy life, and do not keep the commandment, remain in the dark, by at the end of our liufe, we shall be end up in the lake of fire.

Bible teaching us very clear, these are conditional with warnings. We cannot neglect them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

"Never-Saved-To-Begin-With" seems to me to be a cop out phrase, for Christians bent on getting out from under the warning/accountability passages.

Now "SEE" you ARE trying to solve a problem for OSAS believers just like I said -- though slow to admit it.

The PROBLEM is that OSAS has to turn a blind eye to the warning texts. you are trying to find a way not to have to do that and STILL cling to OSAS.

I keep pointing this out in the "bogus way to salvation OSAS" thread.