"Never Saved To Begin With"

[Mr.M]

I believe I understood you correctly, and did not misrepresent your remarks in any way.

Time will tell...time will tell.

Try answering the questions I asked. I believe they are pertinent to the logical implications your remarks gender. By answering them, you have the wonderful opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings or false implications.

What logical implications or false implications?

Be specific, step by step how you drew one or more conclusions in your logic regarding my statement:

Those who are attracted to self-righteousness are always attracted to the denial of the Integrity of Christ to guarantee salvation and the promotion of human effort (i.e. human righteousness) to guarantee salvation. They will scour the Word of God to find any passage they can possibly find to reason that their scheme is legitimate.

I will look for your answer regarding not just the one or more "logical implications" you drew with all of the "logical" steps you took to arrive there, then we can discover if your question is valid. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

MM: Those who are attracted to self-righteousness are always attracted to the denial of the Integrity of Christ to guarantee salvation and the promotion of human effort (i.e. human righteousness) to guarantee salvation.

HP: Jesus said, “Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except ‘your’ righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

“1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[Mr.M]

The above fails to present YOUR LOGIC...it only provides bible verses. Again, YOU claim there are logical implications in what I said, again...please provide the route of logic you took. I can gladly provide some examples of how one explains their logical paths when coming to conclusions if you are unfamiliar with it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

MM: The above fails to present YOUR LOGIC...it only provides bible verses. Again, YOU claim there are logical implications in what I said, again...please provide the route of logic you took. I can gladly provide some examples of how one explains their logical paths when coming to conclusions if you are unfamiliar with it.

HP: My logic is simple. It is nothing more than the Scriptural truth that one cannot separate personal righteousness from ones hope of eternal life. Your logic seems to implies that it can be separated, and that we in actuality remain impure in life and actions while entertaining a certain hope of eternal life.

MM: Those who are attracted to self-righteousness are always attracted to the denial of the Integrity of Christ to guarantee salvation and the promotion of human effort (i.e. human righteousness) to guarantee salvation. They will scour the Word of God to find any passage they can possibly find to reason that their scheme is legitimate.

HP: Here are some questions you can answer directly if it is honestly your desire to have meaningful discussion. Can you give us an example of one on this list that has promoted self-righteousness as a means of salvation or as the grounds of salvation?

Where does Scripture ‘guarantee’ the salvation of any individual apart from human involvement in the fulfilling of certain conditions, one of which is repentance. So I do not misunderstand you, is man required of God to repent in order to be saved? Is the act of repentance merely an attempt to be self-righteous? Does repentance involve human effort? Can one be saved apart from repentance?

Lets start with direct answers to these questions so we can clear up any wrong impressions we might be entertaining as to your real beliefs.

 

[Mr.M]

My logic is simple. It is nothing more than the Scriptural truth that one cannot separate personal righteousness from ones hope of eternal life. Your logic seems to implies that it can be separated, and that we in actuality remain impure in life and actions while entertaining a certain hope of eternal life.

God separates your personal righteousness from HIS that is for sure.
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous acts are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6
Are you seriously under the impression that your personal righteousness is equal to divine righteousness? Have you really no understanding regarding the nature of your salvation and how without divine righteousness you are indeed left with human righteousness which is at best filthy rags. I suppose you somehow think that after one is saved they can produce divine righteousness and if they are saved in the first place what are they saved from? Nothing if they must saved themselves. No, your error is great and wide in take the presumptive position that YOUR personal righteousness in anyway contributes to the imputed divine righteousness through Christ that qualifies you for salvation.

Here are some questions you can answer directly if it is honestly your desire to have meaningful discussion. Can you give us an example of one on this list that has promoted self-righteousness as a means of salvation or as the grounds of salvation?

Sure I can. Let me know when you would like multiple citings.

Where does Scripture ‘guarantee’ the salvation of any individual apart from human involvement in the fulfilling of certain conditions, one of which is repentance. So I do not misunderstand you, is man required of God to repent in order to be saved? Is the act of repentance merely an attempt to be self-righteous? Does repentance involve human effort? Can one be saved apart from repentance?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Repentance is acknowledging the unacceptable nature of one's own righteousness, i.e. coming to understand their life before God is unrighteous, that they cannot earn the righteousness necessary for salvation and need divine righteousness. However one may understand that and never be saved since the Scriptures plainly state to repent and be saved. One must believe on Christ as Savior, that is what results in Salvation. Is repentance human effort? It is human decision making yes, but it doesn't save anyone. Believing on Christ is what saves a person.

Lets start with direct answers to these questions so we can clear up any wrong impressions we might be entertaining as to your real beliefs.

Okay we started, I answered. Got more questions?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

MM: Okay we started, I answered. Got more questions?

HP: Certainly. If you would be so kind as to exercise patience, I will get back with you directly. I have some grandfather duties to perform. They will not be here for long and I will get back with you later this afternoon or this evening. Thanks!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
My logic is simple. It is nothing more than the Scriptural truth that one cannot separate personal righteousness from ones hope of eternal life. Your logic seems to implies that it can be separated, and that we in actuality remain impure in life and actions while entertaining a certain hope of eternal life.

MM" God separates your personal righteousness from HIS that is for sure.
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous acts are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6

HP: Well now. Are we going to allow texts from the OT to serve as evidence for life in the NT? That is certainly close to the way it should be. This thread might prove to be very interesting. We shall see how consistent you remain in this approach.

As for the verse you quote, it states nothing other than all are sinners, and as such no amount of righteousness will make up for even one sin. Nothing we ca do as sinners can be the grounds of salvation. What this verse cannot be shown to say is that righteousness on our part has no meaning or merit. David stated, “Ps 18:20 ¶ The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.” I could list pages of references concerning righteous behavior and righteous men in Scripture. If you are really interested in the truth of righteousness, do a word study on the word righteous. If you really desire the truth, complete your study with words and phrases like ‘without offense’, without rebuke, perfect, blameless, upright, void of offense, holy, pure, unreprovable, unrebukable, ‘in nothing shall I be ashamed,’ without fault, without spot, dead to sin, undefiled, godliness. I am sure they are many more that speak concerning the heart and actions of some men exhibited before God and man. Considering the text you bring up to support your position, what was that you said? “They will scour the Word of God to find any passage they can possibly find to reason that their scheme is legitimate.” Could it be possible that you have done some scouring of your own?

MM: Are you seriously under the impression that your personal righteousness is equal to divine righteousness?

HP: Rightousness is righteousness even as He is righteous. Don’t listen to me. Take god’s Word for your evidence. We are not asked, nor did god suggest, but rather are commanded to be righteous, even as He is righteous. No, we are not God, and we all have sinned, but subsequent to having our hearts purified by faith righteousness is indeed not only a distinct possibility, but COMMANDED by God for us to accomplish.

MM: I suppose you somehow think that after one is saved they can produce divine righteousness and if they are saved in the first place what are they saved from?

HP: Where is righteousness preceeded by the word ‘divine’ in Scriupture? Righteousness is simply intents formed by the will in accordance to love as opposed to selfishness. Yes, subsequent to salvation and being forgiven of all sins that are past, we indeed have the ability to form righteous intents, and as such be found pleasing to God. If you have not experienced the inner testimony of being pleasing to God subsequent to forming righteous intents, I doubt seriously if one has ever been saved.

MM: Nothing if they must saved themselves. No, your error is great and wide in take the presumptive position that YOUR personal righteousness in anyway contributes to the imputed divine righteousness through Christ that qualifies you for salvation.

HP: Back up for a minute. I have never once stated or implied in any way that our righteousness contributes to the imputed divine righteousness through Christ, now have I? If you think I have, show the list my words that state or imply such a notion. That is a fabrication of your own imagination that may provide fallacious and malicious traction for your argument, but has no validity to it whatsoever. It is simply not the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Here are some questions you can answer directly if it is honestly your desire to have meaningful discussion. Can you give us an example of one on this list that has promoted self-righteousness as a means of salvation or as the grounds of salvation?

MM: Sure I can. Let me know when you would like multiple citings.

HP: I can hardly wait to read them. Post away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Where does Scripture ‘guarantee’ the salvation of any individual apart from human involvement in the fulfilling of certain conditions, one of which is repentance. So I do not misunderstand you, is man required of God to repent in order to be saved? Is the act of repentance merely an attempt to be self-righteous? Does repentance involve human effort? Can one be saved apart from repentance?

MM: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Repentance is acknowledging the unacceptable nature of one's own righteousness, i.e. coming to understand their life before God is unrighteous, that they cannot earn the righteousness necessary for salvation and need divine righteousness.

HP: Now that is a novel definition of repentance. Can you support that novel idea with Scripture, reason, or even a simple dictionary?

MM: Is repentance human effort? It is human decision making yes, but it doesn't save anyone. Believing on Christ is what saves a person.

HP: I would agree that repentance in and of itself can never save or forgive even a single sin, yet just the same not one single sin will be forgiven apart from repentance. We are not saved for the sake of repentance, i.e. repentance is not the grounds for forgiveness, yet just the same repentance is indeed a condition of forgiveness, without which no man shall escape damnation. Conditions are always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’ NOT ‘that for the sake of.’
Belief cannot save you either, for the devils believe and tremble, yet are not saved. Just the same, belief is again a condition of salvation, without which none can or shall be saved.
There is but one ground of salvation alone, i.e., the mercy of God. Repentance, belief, and obedience to the end are but conditions, without which no salvation will be finally accomplished. We are not saved 'for the sake of those conditions,' but neither will we be saved apart from them.

 

[Mr.M]

Well now. Are we going to allow texts from the OT to serve as evidence for life in the NT? That is certainly close to the way it should be. This thread might prove to be very interesting. We shall see how consistent you remain in this approach.

Oh I see, this is a game of oneupmanship with you. I don't have time for games with God's Word but for now I will forgive your childish remark and approach and pretend you are serious.

As for the verse you quote, it states nothing other than all are sinners, and as such no amount of righteousness will make up for even one sin.Nothing we ca do as sinners can be the grounds of salvation.

Exactly my point and contrary to what you teach which is that a person must keep themselves saved through some form of program of obedience. But hey, thanks for making my point, you made it easy.

The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.”

And you are suggesting David was referring to his eternal salvation in this context? I didn't think so and so...it again makes my point not yours.

If you really desire the truth, complete your study with words and phrases like ‘without offense’, without rebuke, perfect, blameless, upright, void of offense, holy, pure, unreprovable, unrebukable, ‘in nothing shall I be ashamed,’ without fault, without spot, dead to sin, undefiled, godliness.

Oh yeah, I haven't studied ANY of that. Right...good grief the arrogant presumption you display with these kind of remarks makes it difficult to post without heavy sarcasm.

what was that you said? “They will scour the Word of God to find any passage they can possibly find to reason that their scheme is legitimate.” Could it be possible that you have done some scouring of your own?

I scour all the time, for what is there. I don't show up with a grid of self-righteous human works ideology and then attempt to deconstruct and then wrongly reconstruct Scripture so I can build a crooked house and declare it's soundly built.

Rightousness is righteousness even as He is righteous. Don’t listen to me. Take god’s Word for your evidence. We are not asked, nor did god suggest, but rather are commanded to be righteous, even as He is righteous. No, we are not God,

Right we are NOT God. He is perfect righteousness and you...are unrighteousness. Keep remembering that and the light will come on, I do hope.

Where is righteousness preceeded by the word ‘divine’ in Scriupture?

Munch on these thoughts:
Ps 50:6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Okay what would you call the righteousness here? Human righteousness? Are you so unfamiliar with English vocabulary that synonymous terms are too difficult for you to handle? The righteousness of God IS DIVINE righteousness and YOU, brother, are NOT GOD, hence YOU cannot produce divine righteousness.

Belief cannot save you either, for the devils believe and tremble, yet are not saved. Just the same, belief is again a condition of salvation, without which none can or shall be saved.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Unrepentant people don't believe but repentant ones are ready to. It is belief in Christ as Savior saves. That and that alone.

Are you kidding me with the devils believing comment? Are you NOT aware that no matter HOW MUCH a devil believes it couldn't be saved ANYWAY. Christ DID NOT DIE for them, he only died for the human race so belief in Christ as Savior isn't even an OPTION for DEMONS. The life, death and resurrection of Christ was for HUMANS ONLY.

There is but one ground of salvation alone, i.e., the mercy of God.

Good, quit adding to it then.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
As for the verse you quote, it states nothing other than all are sinners, and as such no amount of righteousness will make up for even one sin. Nothing we can do as sinners can be the grounds of salvation.

MM: Exactly my point and contrary to what you teach which is that a person must keep themselves saved through some form of program of obedience. But hey, thanks for making my point, you made it easy.

HP: You fail to distinguish between the grounds of salvation and the conditions of salvation. The grounds of salvation are thought of in the sense of that for the sake of. Conditions, involving man, are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which.’ When you come to grips with these two separate issues, you can see how it is said that there is nothing we can do that will in any way ‘merit’ salvation,’ yet there is something we must do in order to be saved, and things we must do to remain with a firm hope of salvation, both thought of in the sense of ‘not without which.’ Let me illustrate it for you by this illustration.

A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just, and attitudes are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on their account. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’ in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’) of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.

Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?

Such is the case with salvation. We are not saved ‘for the sake of’ our repentance, faith or obedience, but neither will we be saved ‘apart from’ our willing repentance, belief and subsequent obedience. The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God. The conditions are repentance, belief, and obedience to the end. We are saved for the sake of God’s mercy, but we will not be saved without repentance, belief and continued obedience until the end. Nothing we can or will do serve as grounds of our salvation, but no one will be saved apart from their voluntary compliance to the conditions of Salvation God has set forth in Scripture.

 

[Cutter]

After reading through all of the pages on this thread, one thought comes to mind. I am so thankful that man will not be my judge.
No one has pointed out what the scripture has to say about judging others anyway. The OP produces a hypothetical situation and then it's open game as to our judgment. How pathetic! Our judgment is not going to mean diddly anyway.
Jesus did say, "Judge not. lest ye be judged."
Paul said, "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

Ken, I strongly suggest you working out your salvation as you see fit and stop worrying so much about others working out theirs!

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Ken, your posts wreak of self promotion and glorification. I sense no humbleness in your posts whatsoever, yet the Bible has plenty to say on that, as well.

Oops sorry, I could not help passing a little judgment myself.
Forgive me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Cutter: Ken, your posts wreak of self promotion and glorification. I sense no humbleness in your posts whatsoever, yet the Bible has plenty to say on that, as well.

HP: If we are to forgive you for your judgmental attitude you here reflect, and you ask us to forgive, what evidence do you offer the list of a repentant heart for your actions?

 

[Cutter]

HP: If we are to forgive you for your judgmental attitude you here reflect, and you ask us to forgive, what evidence do you offer the list of a repentant heart for your actions?

Oops sorry, I could not help passing a little judgment myself.
Forgive me.

Does confession count?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Is anyone having trouble accessing the last page of threads besides me? Just wondering.

 

[Cutter]

Is anyone having trouble accessing the last page of threads besides me? Just wondering.

I'm not having trouble with it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Cutter: Does confession count?

HP: Let me ask you. If a murderer confesses he is a murderer, does mere confession suffice for repentance? If you came home and confessed to your spouse that you have committed adultery, will your spouse automatically accept that confession for repentance of the act?

 

[Cutter]

HP: Let me ask you. If a murderer confesses he is a murderer, does mere confession suffice for repentance? If you came home and confessed to your spouse that you have committed adultery, will your spouse automatically accept that confession for repentance of the act?

Whoa!!! How did we go from passing judgment to murder and adultery. You really know how to compare your fruits there, HP, Cutter replies, with tongue firmly planted in cheek!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Cutter: Whoa!!! How did we go from passing judgment to murder and adultery. You really know how to compare your fruits there, HP, Cutter replies, with tongue firmly planted in cheek

!

HP: No need to be alarmed. It was simply a tool to illuminate the real meaning and import of repentance.

I notice you never answered the simple questions. Tell me Cutter, what does repentance entail? Does mere confession constitute repentance?

 

[Iamodd4God]

After reading through all of the pages on this thread, one thought comes to mind. I am so thankful that man will not be my judge.
No one has pointed out what the scripture has to say about judging others anyway. The OP produces a hypothetical situation and then it's open game as to our judgment. How pathetic! Our judgment is not going to mean diddly anyway.
Jesus did say, "Judge not. lest ye be judged."

This is funny (tongue in cheek). Cutter, if I said to you: "Cutter if you murder someone you will go to jail." You wouldn't say "Don't judge!" But because I say murderers will go to hell, then it is looked on as being judging. "Wow!" So if I say all liars will have their place in the lake of fire, I should expect to be judged by God, because I'm judging others? But, all I'm doing is saying what the Bible says, read Revelation 21:8. So if warning people to NOT lie, telling them where they will go is being judgmental and a sin, then Jesus sinned?

As for using a hypothetical situation, and then it being an open game. Did I not use Scripture to support my post? Of course to people like yourself I am misinterpreting the Scripture, and to people like myself you are misinterpreting the Scripture, so begins the debates of who is right and who is wrong. Yes in the end it will be only God who is proven that who is right and who is wrong, but does that excuse us from correcting with Scripture?

Paul said, "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

You wouldn't say that the apostle Paul was a hypocrite I am sure, so allow me to point out your error. As mentioned above warning people about what will happen to those who sin against God is not judging people. The apostle Paul who said: "Therefore judge nothing before the time" also said...

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Was the apostle Paul judging people who do these things by saying they will not inherit the kingdom of God? If not, then how is it that myself or anybody else who says adulterers will not go to heaven is being judgmental?

Ken, I strongly suggest you working out your salvation as you see fit and stop worrying so much about others working out theirs!

That was spoken like a true [Personal Attack Removed]. Only the devil would say not to worry about others salvation.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Ken, your posts wreak of self promotion and glorification. I sense no humbleness in your posts whatsoever, yet the Bible has plenty to say on that, as well.

Again, read the above about judging. However, if this is in regards to my statement about the divisions between the denominations, tell me I'm wrong; show me how divisions among God's church is okay. Or go ahead and make the claim that your denomination is the only right one.

And how is what I said self promoting, and glorifying? Because I say I obey God's commandments I am glorifying myself? Because I say I don't lie, I lack humbleness? Seems to me you're taking cheap jabs at me making false claims about me Cutter.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

Is anyone having trouble accessing the last page of threads besides me? Just wondering.

I did the other day, I just logged off and logged back on, and it fixed it.

Blessings,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

Here is what we learn in the NT from Jesus:

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Yes, Jesus said this, does that mean obedience to the ten commandments is not necessary? If you look at these two commandments Jesus gave, you will see that 1) it is nothing more that the ten commandments summed up into these two, and 2) by obeying these two commandments you would obey the ten commandments. Do I need to explain this in further detail on how by loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind, you will obey the first four commandmnets, and by loving your neighbor as yourself you will obey the last six commandments?

"FEAR" in God is not "Oh, geez! God scares me!" let me run and hide under my bed from Him. Fearing God is a reverence fear. God is the almighty, it is His bidding that I should do above all others including myself.

It appears that you think that you are the only one who has received the perfect revalation of God. You seem to think that all churches are corrupt and do not obey the word of God, yet you have interpreted the scriptures perfectly.

Let me clear this up for you, I am not the only one who has received the perfect revelation of God, you have the same Bible in your hand that I have in my hand Amy. The difference between you and I is that I accept what the Bible says, you are accepting what others says the Bible says. Here is support to prove my claim...

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Do you accept what the above passage of Scripture says, or do you accept what others say this passage of Scripture says? You claim Christians sin, where seeing that a Christian is a person who is "IN" Christ, and this passage of Scripture "SAYS" whoever abides in Christ, DOES NOT SIN, then you don't accept this passage of Scripture, but instead you accept the word of man.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Why do you keep taking one passage of Scripture trying to make your ideas work? The apostle Paul is speaking about the various "gifts" given to people according to the measure of their faith they have. God doesn't give you faith, if that were the case He would give everybody faith, seeing that He wants everybody saved. The gifts God bestows on people is determined by the amount of faith they have that will enable them to use the gift He gives to them.

If God gives me the gift to teach, I'm not to think highly of myself because he gave the guy next to me a lesser gift.

As I said before, Paul wrote of problems in the churches, but never said they were to disassemble.

I totally agree with that Amy, what I disagree with is the Protestant church being "THE" church. If the Protestant church is "THE" church, then it would not be divided as it is. Because it is divided proves that it is not "THE" church.

The reason I don't go to the Catholic church is because of their false teachings, the reaon I don't go to any denomination within the Protestant church is the same reason. Can you point out a denomination that teaches 100% Biblical truth? If anybody teaches all Biblical truth except for just ONE thing, doesn't that make that person a false teacher Amy? According to the Word of God, we are to avoid false teachers, so am I wrong for not assembling myself with Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc.?

As long as they believe in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and that we are saved by grace through faith in His shed blood, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Doesn't the devil believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died on the cross for sins, and that He is risen from the dead? I will even be as bold to say that the devil not only believes these things, he KNOWS these things. Does that make Satan a child of God Amy?

Here is what makes a person a brother and sister according to Jesus...

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

A person can SAY they believe in Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection and still NOT be in the family of God. I am sure you agree with that Amy, so what would prove that they are truly a brother or sister? According to Jesus it is what they do. Read on the fruits John 15.

Oh and before anybody says that I am teaching salvation by works allow me to clarify. Doing the will of God DOES NOT SAVE YOU except placing your faith on Jesus Christ His Son.

These people woshipped in "homes" but it wasn't always their own homes. And they did so because there were no church buildings. These assemblies did not consist of just 1 family. There were thousands in each city. On the day of Pentacost, 3000 were saved at Peter's preaching.
The "church" is the body of Christ consisting of many believers. It doesn't matter if they meet in a home or a building, but the point is that they're were many, many gathering daily together wherever they could.
Those passages are not talking about individual familes holding services in their own private homes apart from other believers.

Why did I know you were going to say "there were no church buildings"? I told my wife you would say that, and sure enough here it is, which is true that there were no church buildings. But still, show me a church building where what is taught inside 100% Biblical truth. AND, in regards to the early church (though they had no church buildings) did they disagree on eternal security, baptism, etc.? If they did, did the apostles say it doesn't matter as long as they believe on the death, burrial and resurrection on Christ?

There is nothing wrong with holding worship services in a private home, but if it only consists of 1 family, that is "family worship time" not the assembling together of believers that Paul is teaching.

So Amy, are you saying that God doesn't see our worshipping Him in our home as being a true act of worship because it isn't in a church building on a street corner in town with a group of professing believers? Also, show me a church that teaches 100% Biblical truth, and you can bet I would be there.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken