"Never Saved To Begin With"

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hope of Glory: Bob Ryan, you're going to hell.

So am I.

HP: I am hoping for glory, not hell. Define hell as you so desire, my hope is in heaven, not hell. “Those that believe in me shall NEVER die” let alone go to hell. “That where I am, there ye shall be also.” That is my hope of glory, Hope of Glory. :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

Since two words that are translated as "hell" are nothing more than the grave, how are you going to avoid it? (Barring the rapture, of course.)

 

[Eric B]

The problem is Amy, that you have done what so many before you has done, and that is you have taken 1John 1:8 out of context. When you put 1John 1:8 into context, you will see that the apostle John was writing to non-Christians...

1John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, THAT YE ALSO MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH US: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

...if the people this was addressed to were already Christians, then they would have already been in fellowship together.

I'm surprised nobody addressed this, but it could not be allowed to pass.
That John was talking to nonbelievers is disproven by the fact that the verse in question says "If WE say WE have no sin", NOT "If YOU say YOU have no sin".
The epistles are not written to nonbelievers (And this point has often been used in these OSAS debates to say that people being addressed who "fall away" must have been saved). There are probably new believers, and while there is already spiritual fellowship, John is trying to make the fellowship something that is living and put to practice. "So that you may have fellowship". Not so that you may be converted.

 

[EdSutton]

"Lordship Salvation" and "never saved to begin with" are a couple of the greatest 'Christian' "cop-outs" around!

I simply don't have the anywhere near the time it would take to get deeply into these two ideas, currently, but have addressed them in the past, and one can read them in my varied posts over the last two years.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Is Lordship Salvation to believe that the Children of God do good works and do not commit sin unto death, but sin a sin that is not unto death, but have an advocate with God for that sin, and receive chastisement for that sin also, which is Jesus Christ???

In other words to believe the "saved" are a new creature and have put off the old man and put on the new????

Is this Lordship Salvation???

In other words is this the new kid on the block?

Wikipedia

In the mid-20th century Reformed scholars began to question whether the opposing could even be considered "Christian"[1] and if the Gospel of the new evangelical culture was even the true gospel.[2]
Dispensational leaders, many of whom advocated carnal Christianity, were slow to respond to this observation, especially given their recent experience separating from Dispensational Fundamentalists, an experience not shared or duplicated by Reformed Evangelicals.[3] The Reformed tradition, with its historical debates with Arminianism and its self-identification with Augustine in his debate with Pelagius, gave Reformed scholars and church leaders an intellectual tradition from which to oppose what they considered a false gospel.[4]
The first known use of the term "lordship salvation" occurred in a 1959 debate in Eternity magazine between Presbyterian Everett F. Harrison, a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, and John Stott, an Anglican theologian. The controversy moved to the forefront of the evangelical world in the late 1980's when Calvinist John F. MacArthur argued against the doctrine of carnal Christianity in his book The Gospel According to Jesus (ISBN 0-310-39491-0). In response, in 1989, Charles Ryrie published So Great Salvation and Zane C. Hodges published Absolutely Free! A Biblical Reply to Lordship Salvation. Both MacArthur's and the Hodges's books were published by Zondervan. MacArthur later published Faith Works (1993) and Hodges released a 2nd edition of his earlier title, The Gospel Under Siege in 1989.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ES: "Lordship Salvation" and "never saved to begin with" are a couple of the greatest 'Christian' "cop-outs" around!

HP: How is Lordship salvation a cop-out?