"Never Saved To Begin With"

[Iamodd4God]

Approximately two weeks ago I said I would make two posts, one about baptism, and one about the phrase "Never Saved To Begin With". I made the post about baptism, but I got busy, and forgot to make the post about the phrase "Never Saved To Begin With". So here it is...

A man goes through the motions to become saved; he goes in front of the church and confesses himself as being a sinner, and he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, asking God for His forgiveness for his sins. By his doing that everybody agrees that the man is saved. Later this man leaves his wife for another woman.

Okay, now this is where the OSAS proponents stands divided one from another. Some OSAS proponents would say that this man is still saved, and is on his way to heaven despite his adultery, while other OSAS proponents will disagree, and say that this man was never saved to begin with.

First, let's prove that such a man is NOT on his way to heaven...

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOR ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The apostle Paul through the inspiration of God said that no adulterer is going to inherit the kingdom of God. So, how could the man above who left his wife for another woman, which makes him an adulterer be on his way to heaven?

Second, let's prove the hypocrisy of the "Never Saved To Begin With" tag...

Those who say that this man who left his wife to be with another woman was never saved to begin with, do you also apply that same principle to all of the other sins? For example; do you say that a person who tells a lie was never saved to begin with? Of course you don't; in my understanding that is called hypocrisy.

Okay, let's say that by this man not repenting proves that he was never saved to begin with, again you would have to apply this principle to all of the other sins. And what does repent mean? It means to "turn away" from the sin. To stop sinning (Read Ezekiel chapter 18.) So by saying that unless this man leaves that woman, and returns back to his wife proves he was never saved to begin with, then that would prove to be true for all of the other sins. Unless a person repents and stops telling lies, they will only prove that they were never saved.

Uh oh, how many people who have gone through the motion to become saved, has not truly repented of their sins? How many people will Jesus say to "I never knew you, depart from me ye evil doers? (Matthew 7:21-23).

In the name of Christ,

Ken

 

[SBCPreacher]

First, let's prove that such a man is NOT on his way to heaven...

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOR ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I've just gotta ask.

Have you ever stolen? Time from an employer? A grade that you did not deserve? A company pen? Anything at all? If yes (and more than likely it's yes), then you're a thief and you're not going to heaven.

Have you ever coveted? Have you set your heart on something that belongs to someone else? Then you're not going to heaven.

Is that what you 're trying to say that this verse says?

 

[BobRyan]

A couple of good points brought out by the OP

#1. Sacred vs profane sins. Venial vs mortal?. We argue that the adulterer, wife-beater, mass-murdere has to "get the victory" -- they can not clam to be a Christian and simply "mass murder a little less each week". We totally reject that. "Gossip a little less" well maybe ok - but not "commit adultery less often each month".

2. Both the OSAS and NON-OSAS groups do believe there is such a thing as "never was saved to begin with". The real question is in the case where we conclude someone was saved and the only evidence that tey were not is "ten years later they failed to persevere".

If all was well for ten years then - how could THEY know they were not really saved until they saw that ten years from today they fail to persevere? If the answer is "no way to know" then the 3 and 5 point calvinists have no "basis" for assurance until they SEE that ten years from today they continue to persevere.

By contrast BOTH the 4 point Calivnists and the consistent-Arminians DO have a basis for assurance today. The Calvinist-4's by rejecting the Bible doctrine on perseverance. The Arminians by accepting it and knowing for sure TODAY they are saved - but not knowing what they will CHOOSE ten years from today.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iamodd4God]

I've just gotta ask.

Have you ever stolen? Time from an employer? A grade that you did not deserve? A company pen? Anything at all? If yes (and more than likely it's yes), then you're a thief and you're not going to heaven.

Have you ever coveted? Have you set your heart on something that belongs to someone else? Then you're not going to heaven.

Is that what you 're trying to say that this verse says?

To answer your question, have I ever stolen or coveted? Oh yes, those things and much more; too many sins to name to be exact. But have I done these things SINCE I have become a Christian? No.

What you are doing is comparing the past to the present. The apostle Paul in 1Corinthians 6:9-11 is speaking of both past and present actions. Notice what he says...

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

This is speaking about people presently "DOING" these things. The man I used in my example is a man "DOING" adultery which makes him an adulterer.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

This is speaking about people who in past tense times did these things. Notice what the apostle said? "And such WERE some of you:"

Let me ask you straight out, do you believe that a Christian who commits murder is not a murderer? Or a Christian who tells a lie is not a liar? As a Christian, can I commit idolatry without being and idolater? Who would want us to believe that; God or Satan?

In the name of Christ,

Ken

 

[Amy.G]

Do I sin? Absolutely NOT! I obey God's commandments as it is our duty, and only those who do the will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21-23; Revelation 22:14).

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

Ken, you are a sinner just like the rest of us. You lied in this post above, therefore you are a liar. (By you own standards)


1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[webdog]

But have I done these things SINCE I have become a Christian? No.

This is remarkebly hard to believe...

 

[charles_creech78]

To answer your question, have I ever stolen or coveted? Oh yes, those things and much more; too many sins to name to be exact. But have I done these things SINCE I have become a Christian? No.

What you are doing is comparing the past to the present. The apostle Paul in 1Corinthians 6:9-11 is speaking of both past and present actions. Notice what he says...

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

This is speaking about people presently "DOING" these things. The man I used in my example is a man "DOING" adultery which makes him an adulterer.

1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

This is speaking about people who in past tense times did these things. Notice what the apostle said? "And such WERE some of you:"

Let me ask you straight out, do you believe that a Christian who commits murder is not a murderer? Or a Christian who tells a lie is not a liar? As a Christian, can I commit idolatry without being and idolater? Who would want us to believe that; God or Satan?

In the name of Christ,

Ken

I believe you. Only God can judge you my brother but I do believe you.

 

[Analgesic]

I believe you. Only God can judge you my brother but I do believe you.

Then I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[charles_creech78]

If you are saying you do them things that paul wrote shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven then you lie and do not the truth. I will tell you and everyone else I talk to if you do them things you are of the devil. If you do them things and say that you are of God then you are a blasphemer. You are speaking evil of GOD.

 

[Iamodd4God]

Ken, you are a sinner just like the rest of us. You lied in this post above, therefore you are a liar. (By you own standards)


1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Amy, let's take 1John 1:8 and compare it to a few other passages of Scripture written by the same author, and let's see how your belief holds up...

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If I say I don't sin then I am lying.

1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If I abide in Christ, I ought to walk as Christ walked. How is that possible seeing that Jesus lived a SINLESS life? If it is impossible, then this passage of Scripture would not be in the Bible.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If I say I don't sin then I am lying.

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

How can I abide in Christ and sin, when here I am told that anyone who abides in Christ DOES NOT sin? Doersn't that put me in a catch all 21 situation? "I don't sin" you're a liar 1John 1:8. "I abide in Christ, but I sin" you're a liar 1John 3:6.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If I say I don't sin then I am lying.

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

How can I sin, and NOT be of the devil? Again, that puts me in that catch all 21 game. "I don't sin." you lie 1John 1:8. "I sin, but I'm not of the devil." You lie 1John 3:8.

The problem is Amy, that you have done what so many before you has done, and that is you have taken 1John 1:8 out of context. When you put 1John 1:8 into context, you will see that the apostle John was writing to non-Christians...

1John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, THAT YE ALSO MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH US: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

...if the people this was addressed to were already Christians, then they would have already been in fellowship together.

Whether you or anybody else likes it or not the bottom line is this: God has a NO SIN policy...

Jesus told two people to SIN NO MORE (John 5:14; John 8:11); Jesus didn't tell them to try to sin no more, or to slow down on their sin. NO MORE means just that, NO MORE.

Jesus told a man that if he wants to enter into eternal life to obey the commandments (Matthew 19:16-17). Revelation 22:14 tells us that those who obey the commandments will have the right to the tree of life. Obeying the commandments is the WHOLE duty of man (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Disobedience of the commandments is sin (1John 3:4).

In the name of Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

If you are saying you do them things that paul wrote shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven then you lie and do not the truth. I will tell you and everyone else I talk to if you do them things you are of the devil. If you do them things and say that you are of God then you are a blasphemer. You are speaking evil of GOD.

Exactly right. The teachers of today teach that "SINNERS" go to hell, yet they teach that you are a sinner. So there message is "sinners go to hell EXCEPT those who are under the blood of Jesus." Then they deny teaching Jesus' blood as being a license to sin???

If I were to ask these people how may lies does it take to make a person a liar, they would say 1 lie. Then after I point out Revelation 21:8 which shows ALL LIARS will have their place in the lake of fire; they would dance around the passage of Scripture excluding themselves. So if you ask them why they wouldn't be included they would say they have Jesus.

So because I have Jesus I can tell lies, steal, murder, commit adultery, worship false gods, commit idolatry, not keep the sabbath day holy etc. etc.? Whew, has Satan got the blindfold on them tightly.

Oh, but wait a minute; they can point out how the difference between them and the non-Christian liars is that they repent of their sins where the non-Christians don't repent. This shows me that they don't know what repentance is. Repentance is NOT asking for forgiveness for sin, repentance is TURNING AWAY from sin. READ EZEKIEL chapter 18 PEOPLE!

in the name of Christ,

Ken

 

[charles_creech78]

Amen I believe that brother.

 

[Bro. Williams]

There seems to be a lack of discernment over the issue of the new man and the old man on this thread.

 

[Amy.G]

Ken, how do you explain this scripture?

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[BobRyan]

Prior to Paul's conversion He claims he was tormenting/torturing/sending saints to their deaths --

do you think Paul was still doing that (only possibly less) after his conversion?

In Romans 7 Paul points to the internal struggle all saints have with the sinful nature vs the new-creation the new nation created when we accept Christ as our savior.

In Romans 8 Paul points to the victory that is ours as saints walking "According to the Spirit" and not "according to the flesh".

in fact in Romans 6 Paul points to the fact that we are slaves of the one we serve - either of the flesh/sin resulting in death or slaves of righteousness/obedience.

I don't think you have to be sinless to "stay saved" but I do agree that "sin all you want" is not the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Hope of Glory]

Have you ever told an ugly girl she's pretty?

 

[Amy.G]

Prior to Paul's conversion He claims he was tormenting/torturing/sending saints to their deaths --

do you think Paul was still doing that (only possibly less) after his conversion?

In Romans 7 Paul points to the internal struggle all saints have with the sinful nature vs the new-creation the new nation created when we accept Christ as our savior.

In Romans 8 Paul points to the victory that is ours as saints walking "According to the Spirit" and not "according to the flesh".

in fact in Romans 6 Paul points to the fact that we are slaves of the one we serve - either of the flesh/sin resulting in death or slaves of righteousness/obedience.

I don't think you have to be sinless to "stay saved" but I do agree that "sin all you want" is not the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I really get weary from people saying that some on this board believe we can sin all we want. NOBODY has said that.
We all agree that if someone were to believe grace is a license to sin, then they haven't received any. They aren't saved. No born again believer thinks sin is ok. Yet, in spite of our love for God, we do sin. Who will deny that? (except Ken)

Paul struggled with sin, the same as all of us. We will not be free of it until we are resurrected into uncorruptible bodies.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Approximately two weeks ago I said I would make two posts, one about baptism, and one about the phrase "Never Saved To Begin With". I made the post about baptism, but I got busy, and forgot to make the post about the phrase "Never Saved To Begin With". So here it is...

A man goes through the motions to become saved; he goes in front of the church and confesses himself as being a sinner, and he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, asking God for His forgiveness for his sins. By his doing that everybody agrees that the man is saved. Later this man leaves his wife for another woman.

Okay, now this is where the OSAS proponents stands divided one from another. Some OSAS proponents would say that this man is still saved, and is on his way to heaven despite his adultery, while other OSAS proponents will disagree, and say that this man was never saved to begin with.

First, let's prove that such a man is NOT on his way to heaven...

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOR ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The apostle Paul through the inspiration of God said that no adulterer is going to inherit the kingdom of God. So, how could the man above who left his wife for another woman, which makes him an adulterer be on his way to heaven?

Second, let's prove the hypocrisy of the "Never Saved To Begin With" tag...

Those who say that this man who left his wife to be with another woman was never saved to begin with, do you also apply that same principle to all of the other sins? For example; do you say that a person who tells a lie was never saved to begin with? Of course you don't; in my understanding that is called hypocrisy.

Okay, let's say that by this man not repenting proves that he was never saved to begin with, again you would have to apply this principle to all of the other sins. And what does repent mean? It means to "turn away" from the sin. To stop sinning (Read Ezekiel chapter 18.) So by saying that unless this man leaves that woman, and returns back to his wife proves he was never saved to begin with, then that would prove to be true for all of the other sins. Unless a person repents and stops telling lies, they will only prove that they were never saved.

Uh oh, how many people who have gone through the motion to become saved, has not truly repented of their sins? How many people will Jesus say to "I never knew you, depart from me ye evil doers? (Matthew 7:21-23).

In the name of Christ,

Ken

Okay, now that you've shown both OSAS and the NSTBW crowds to be wrong and hypocritical, do you mind if I ask you what you say about it ?

 

[Brother Bob]

I've just gotta ask.

Have you ever stolen? Time from an employer? A grade that you did not deserve? A company pen? Anything at all? If yes (and more than likely it's yes), then you're a thief and you're not going to heaven.

Have you ever coveted? Have you set your heart on something that belongs to someone else? Then you're not going to heaven.

Is that what you 're trying to say that this verse says?

a resounding NO! I may of ended up with someone else's pen, but by mistake. If you call that stealing, then I do not know what to say.
Why would I walk up and tell a girl she is ugly. I know a ugly one when I see it, but make it a point not to say it to her, for I worry about "myself". I am too old and sick to take a beating now.

Some say they can't stand to hear a "license to sin" but all I hear on here is "get saved" and no matter what you do, it is covered by the blood, what really is sickening to me is for someone to say, you can die in the very act of adultery and it covered, and you go home to sing with the angels. I have a duty to tell people to "turn from sin" then you will be saved. The same thing is true if you are in the act of adultery, do you think God will save you while you continue what you are doing? Some will say "yes", but not me. I tell someone to bring fruit meet for repentance, then Christ will allow His blood to cover them, and in the act of adultery is the fruit of the devil, which Jesus will not accept.

Those who say that this man who left his wife to be with another woman was never saved to begin with, do you also apply that same principle to all of the other sins? For example; do you say that a person who tells a lie was never saved to begin with? Of course you don't; in my understanding that is called hypocrisy.

Pinoy; why would you say that. If you came to our church and it was proven someone had lied, and I do mean "proven" in the mouth of two or three witnesses, then we would tell them they failed to turn from sin. They need to make it right with the Lord and come back, and we will receive them with open arms. Anything else is hypocrisy
Call us hard or hypocrit all you want, but condoneing someone in adultery, is hypocrisy, but worse than that, you cause that person to be blinded in the truth and go to hell when they die.

 

[charles_creech78]

1 pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: FOR he that HATH SUFFERED IN THE FLESH hath CEASED FROM SIN: 1pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the LUSTS of men, but to the will of God. 1 pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lust, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries; 1pe 4:4 Wherein THEY THINK IT STRANGE THAT YE RUN NOT WITH THEM TO THE SAME EXCESS OF RIOT, SPEAKING EVIL OF YOU. Do you people that fight with him thank it is to be strange that he does not sin like you. Don't speak evil of what you do not understand.