"Never Saved To Begin With"

[Darron Steele]

You omitted a crucial part of that post -- the sentence right before your tiny extract.

You lied in saying I did not `explain' what prompted the contents of that tiny extract. You did that very thing again.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DS: You lied

HP: Here is yet another brief extract that should concern this list. This is nothing short of a personal attack that has no place on a discussion list among believers. You have no basis whatsoever to impugn my motives in this discussion as you have chosen to do. You can make your point, run and hide or do whatever, but you never have to make a personal attack as you have chosen to do.

 

[Darron Steele]

Hi HeavenlyPilgrim.

Yeah -- I will `Run and hide.' I do not want any part of this sleazy politician-style debate stuff.

This opponent withdraws. It is not worth it to me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DS: This opponent withdraws. It is not worth it to me.

HP: I was not suggesting that that you have or should run and hide, I was simply saying that there are many alternatives to personal attacks.

Sorry you feel the need to withdraw.

 

[rbell]

Warning: Long post, In response to Ken (Iamodd4God):

Key passages germane to discussion:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

9Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21:

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Proverbs 6:16-19:

16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:

17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Revelation 21:8:

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

SO, we would then say a Christian cannot commit: (the following lists the sins gleaned from above passages)...
Sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, male prostitution, homosexuality, theft, greed, drunkenness, slander, swindling, impurity, debauchery, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, rage, selfishness, dissention, factions, envy, orgies, haughty eyes, lying, shedding innocent blood, rushing to evil, false witnessing, cowardice, unbelief, vileness, murder, magic arts. (*please note...duplicate items from these scriptures are omitted)


Could you honestly say that you have not committed a sin from this list? I couldn't. I doubt anyone could. So that presents a problem, doesn't it?

Well...What does James say?

James 2:10-11:

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

This is quite the important passage. We can't keep the law. We're not saved because of our law-keeping prowess. We fail. Miserably. It then becomes about grace and forgiveness.

Now...if someone is habitually living in sin, and there's no repentance/turning/conviction...of course there's a problem then. But if we're gonna make the "sins Christians can't commit" list...then let's be sure and take all the passages, and look at them as a whole.

This thread, and the 22,197,122.5 threads like it, usually end up dwelling on sins such as murder, homosexuality, and adultery.

Why don't we leave those "hot button" ones and mention a few of the other sins mentioned in the oft-stated passages: lying and thievery are mentioned. Can a Christian commit them? Yep. Are they still sins...a terrible affront to a Holy God? Absolutely. Will they bring about His chastening to His children? You better believe it. If they are a child of God, his chastening will be sure, and it won't be pleasant.

I do put "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" in a different class, because Jesus did.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Why don't we leave those "hot button" ones and mention a few of the other sins mentioned in the oft-stated passages: lying and thievery are mentioned. Can a Christian commit them? Yep. Are they still sins...a terrible affront to a Holy God? Absolutely. Will they bring about His chastening to His children? You better believe it. If they are a child of God, his chastening will be sure, and it won't be pleasant.

Well said.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

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Posted by Lacy: “Most believers have given little thought to what the disapproval of God at the judgment Seat really means . . .It does not say "he sall enjoy loss" but suffer loss.”​

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M.R. Dehaan, M.D.​

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HP: What is amazing to me is the litany of statements made by men that simply lack Scriptural or other support, but are constantly used to bolster ones doctrinal positions. I would ask the list once again to set forth any proof that the penalty for sin in the believer’s life is loss of rewards. Where is that stated or implied in Scripture?

 

[BobRyan]

1. There is no Purgatory!
2. There is no way to turn hell into Purgatory and "go to heaven even if you go to hell"
3. There is NOT even ONE text in all of scripture that says "DENIED from going to the Kingdom of heaven BUT STILL going to heaven anyway"

Basically these non-RC arguments in favor of purgatory are all bogus and do not have even ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE to support them.

So you have to ask WHY in the world such an empty teaching would hold weight with ANY non-Catholic! Even the RCC rejects the false doctrine that says those who go to hell will later go to heaven!

How in the world can this belief be taken seriously without even ONE text to support it??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lacy Evans]

HP: What is amazing to me is the litany of statements made by men that simply lack Scriptural or other support, but are constantly used to bolster ones doctrinal positions. I would ask the list once again to set forth any proof that the penalty for sin in the believer’s life is loss of rewards. Where is that stated or implied in Scripture?

You are debating with my signature dude! And Dehaan wasn't even (AFAIK) a Millennial Exclusionists. Read his book and debate in your head with him.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Basically these non-RC arguments in favor of purgatory are all bogus and do not have even ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE to support them.

So . . er . . .Bob.

Don't the RCs believe you can lose your salvation?

How about your non-RC arguments for that?

 

[Iamodd4God]

Warning: Long post, In response to Ken (Iamodd4God):

Key passages germane to discussion:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10:


Galatians 5:19-21:


Proverbs 6:16-19:


Revelation 21:8:


SO, we would then say a Christian cannot commit: (the following lists the sins gleaned from above passages)...
Sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, male prostitution, homosexuality, theft, greed, drunkenness, slander, swindling, impurity, debauchery, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, rage, selfishness, dissention, factions, envy, orgies, haughty eyes, lying, shedding innocent blood, rushing to evil, false witnessing, cowardice, unbelief, vileness, murder, magic arts. (*please note...duplicate items from these scriptures are omitted)


Could you honestly say that you have not committed a sin from this list? I couldn't. I doubt anyone could. So that presents a problem, doesn't it?

Well...What does James say?

James 2:10-11:


This is quite the important passage. We can't keep the law. We're not saved because of our law-keeping prowess. We fail. Miserably. It then becomes about grace and forgiveness.

Now...if someone is habitually living in sin, and there's no repentance/turning/conviction...of course there's a problem then. But if we're gonna make the "sins Christians can't commit" list...then let's be sure and take all the passages, and look at them as a whole.

This thread, and the 22,197,122.5 threads like it, usually end up dwelling on sins such as murder, homosexuality, and adultery.

Why don't we leave those "hot button" ones and mention a few of the other sins mentioned in the oft-stated passages: lying and thievery are mentioned. Can a Christian commit them? Yep. Are they still sins...a terrible affront to a Holy God? Absolutely. Will they bring about His chastening to His children? You better believe it. If they are a child of God, his chastening will be sure, and it won't be pleasant.

I do put "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" in a different class, because Jesus did.

rbell, why do you say James 2:10-11 is saying we can't obey the commandments when that isn't what that passage of Scripture says? All James 2:10-11 is saying is if you break ONE of the laws, then you are a law breaker. If YOU violate any single ONE of God's commandments, then you are a law breaker. If you steal, are you doing the will of God or the will of Satan? Sin is the will of Satan, so if you are doing the will of the devil, and claim that you are a child of God, how can that be when Jesus said...

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

if you sin, how can you say you are of God, when through the inspiration of God the apostle John writes...

1John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: WHOSOEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Do you dare say that sins comitted are righteous acts???

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

BobRyan: your post makes no sense. I quoted John 8:31b where Jesus said “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine” (NASB).
This makes no sense in light of your argument. A person will not continue in what s/he never started. Exactly, but I would think that works against you. The verse suggests that if they did not continue, they never really started.

Now what logical sense does that make? "Hey if you don't continue eating your hamburger then that means you never really started to eat it".

Jesus said "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" this doesn't imply that those who does not continue in His Word were never in His Word, this implies that those who discontinues being in His Word discontinues to be His disciples, just as John 6:66 states...

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Using your logic, we would say that these people were NEVER really disciples, but if that is true, then why does the Scripture refer to them as disciples? And by them "follwing Jesus NO MORE" does that mean they are still His disciples?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[rbell]

rbell, why do you say James 2:10-11 is saying we can't obey the commandments when that isn't what that passage of Scripture says? All James 2:10-11 is saying is if you break ONE of the laws, then you are a law breaker. If YOU violate any single ONE of God's commandments, then you are a law breaker. If you steal, are you doing the will of God or the will of Satan? Sin is the will of Satan, so if you are doing the will of the devil, and claim that you are a child of God, how can that be when Jesus said...

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

if you sin, how can you say you are of God, when through the inspiration of God the apostle John writes...

1John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: WHOSOEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Do you dare say that sins comitted are righteous acts???

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

So are you saying you don't sin?

 

[Iamodd4God]

"So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, `If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine'” (NASB).

"Continue" means to extend an action into the future. "Disciples" means "followers." If someone is Christ's follower, s/he will continue to follow Him.

You say if someone is Christ's follower, s/he will continue to follow Him. How do you explain John 6:66? The Bible says that these DISCIPLES followed Him no more. So how can you say s/he will continue to follow Him when we have Biblical evidence that disciples DO stop following after Christ?

You can say that these people were NEVER disciples, but then why does the Bible call them disciples? And since they stopped following after Jesus, did they remain being His disciples? I stopped being a Baptist, does that mean I am still a Baptist?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

So are you saying you don't sin?

Well let's see...

1) Thou shalt have no other god.

No I don't have other gods.

2) Thou shalt not make graven images, thou shalt not bow thyself to them or serve them.

No I don't commit idolatry.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD in vain.

No I haven't and don't take the name of God in vain.

4) Keep the Sabbath day holy.

Yes, I keep the sabbath day holy.

5) Honor your father and mother.

Yes, I honor my parents.

6) Thou shalt not kill.

No I don't kill.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.

No I do not commit adultery.

8) Thou shalt not steal.

No I do not steal.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

No I do not lie.

10) Thou shalt not covet.

No I do not covet.

Which of these do you do? If you do any of these you need to repent; stop doing it, and obey God or you will NOT enter eternal life (Matthew 19:16-17); you will NOT have the right to the tree of life (Revelation 22:14).

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[rbell]

Obeying the 10 commandments is a great idea.

However, you are adding requirements to Salvation. "By grace are you saved...not of works."

That's a very bad idea. Didn't work well for the Pharisees.

Your answer sounds like the rich young ruler's. He went away sad.

 

[Iamodd4God]

Obeying the 10 commandments is a great idea.

However, you are adding requirements to Salvation. "By grace are you saved...not of works."

That's a very bad idea. Didn't work well for the Pharisees.

Your answer sounds like the rich young ruler's. He went away sad.

I'm adding requirements to salvation? Where did I mention anything about salvation? I would greatly appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth.

Now, "AFTER" you are saved are you excused from obedience to God? I bet you say no, but I bet you believe that you are no longer under the penalty of sin when you do sin as a "Christian".

Jesus said to the rich man "IF you will ENTER into eternal life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. " I want you to pay very close attention to what Jesus DID NOT say...

If you will "OBTAIN" eternal life. No, Jesus said if you will "ENTER" into eternal life; obey the commandments.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

I have a hard time with the concept of "turning from Christ". Do you know of any scripture where someone has actually done this?

Judas turned away from Christ. Many of Jesus' disciples in John 6:66 stopped following Jesus. Young widows turned away from Christ to follow Satan (Acts 5:11-15). Hymenaeus and Alexander among others shipwrecked their faith (1Timothy 1:18-20).

Why do you find it hard to believe that people can turn away from God? Didn't Lucifer turn away from God? He was an angel! If the angels of God can turn away from God, then certainly Christians being human can do the same. Why do you think the Bible gives us passages of warning to beware of false teachers? To beware of the devil who is as roaring lion looking for who he can devour? Is this warning to non Christians? OSAS means Satan cannot devour you, but seeing that God's Word warns us that he is looking for who he can devour, I have to believe he can devour us. Not partially eat us stripping us of rewards in heaven, but DEVOUR us stripping us of heaven itself.

How does one who has the indwelling of God in them, turn away from God? Does God turn away from God? This is like some on this board that claim a person can stop believing. I just find this to be one of those questions that has no answer because of it's impossibility.

Does God turn away from God? A person is not God, and if a person chooses to turn against God, it isn't the Spirit of God within that person turning against God it is the person. Saul turned against God, and by doing so the Spirit of God departed from him.

1Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

How sad to fear that Christ would cast you out.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Amy, John 6:37 is an absolute truth, but equally true is John 15:2, and Romans 11:20-21.

John 15:2 EVERY BRANCH IN ME THAT BEARETH NOT FRUIT HE TAKETH AWAY: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Note the location of these branches? They are "IN" Jesus, NOT outside of Him.

Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: FOR IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO NOT SPARE THEE.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

Iamodd4God

Originally Posted by Iamodd4God
First, let's prove that such a man is NOT on his way to heaven...

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOR ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I've just gotta ask.

Have you ever stolen? Time from an employer? A grade that you did not deserve? A company pen? Anything at all? If yes (and more than likely it's yes), then you're a thief and you're not going to heaven.

Have you ever coveted? Have you set your heart on something that belongs to someone else? Then you're not going to heaven.

Is that what you 're trying to say that this verse says?

I been down this same trail Iamodd4God, for I believe in Christians living Christ Like. I have received the same condemnation as you are receiving, I been called a liar and all, but I don't commit the sins of breaking the Ten Commandments. I sin but it is what Jesus called "a sin not unto death". I get too angry at times, my mouth has gotten me in to more trouble than I can get out of myself. etc.

Let others do as they may, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Some say, you can be in the act of adultery and get hit by lightening and die in that position and still go to heaven. I deny that as heresy.

I do not believe falling from Grace. I believe God and His Grace is strong enough to keep us and deliver us body, spirit and soul blameless in the day of the resurrection.
If we were keeping ourselves, no doubt we would fall, but we are no longer our own keeper, but kept by the power of God.

You said you were no longer a Baptist, I was wondering why?