"Never Saved To Begin With"

[Iamodd4God]

Iamodd4God

I been down this same trail Iamodd4God, for I believe in Christians living Christ Like. I have received the same condemnation as you are receiving, I been called a liar and all, but I don't commit the sins of breaking the Ten Commandments. I sin but it is what Jesus called "a sin not unto death". I get too angry at times, my mouth has gotten me in to more trouble than I can get out of myself. etc.

Let others do as they may, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Some say, you can be in the act of adultery and get hit by lightening and die in that position and still go to heaven. I deny that as heresy.

I do not believe falling from Grace. I believe God and His Grace is strong enough to keep us and deliver us body, spirit and soul blameless in the day of the resurrection.
If we were keeping ourselves, no doubt we would fall, but we are no longer our own keeper, but kept by the power of God.

You said you were no longer a Baptist, I was wondering why?

Hi Bob,

The reason I am no longer a Baptist is because of their blantant false teaching in regards to eternal security, and the sabbath. Before I continue let me ask you a question: how many false teachings does it take to make a church a false teaching church? Just one in my book, and according to Scripture we are to "AVOID" false teachers...

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

...if I were to continue to attend a Baptist church I wouldn't be avoiding false teachers, I'd be yoking myself to them.

In regards to eternal security; it is a Biblical truth, but the WAY the Baptist (among others) teach eternal security is NOT Biblical. Here is proof...

"All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation."

The above is a portion of the statement of faith held by the Southern Baptist. The Southern Baptist believes that “BELIEVERS” may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, and though they will grieve the Spirit, impair their graces, and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ, and temporal judgments on themselves they will NOT lose their salvation. That is not what God’s Word says...

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

God’s Word says the man who “ENDURES” temptation shall receive the “CROWN OF LIFE”. Will those who don’t endure temptation receive the crown of life? Those who do not endure temptation are not lovers of God, they are haters, and enemies of God; they will NOT receive the crown of life.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The result of falling into sin as a result of temptation is DEATH, NOT ETERNAL LIFE. The way the Southern Baptist teaches eternal security IS NOT Biblical!

"The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should include exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. Activities on the Lord's Day should be commensurate with the Christian's conscience under the Lordship of Jesus Christ."

The above quote is another excerpt from the statement of faith held by the Southern Baptist. What the Southern Baptist are claiming is that the Sabbath day is the day of the Lord; what proves this to be the case is that one of the passages of Scripture they use to prove that “THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK IS THE DAY OF THE LORD” is Exodus 20:8-11. Let’s read Exodus 20:8-11 and see if the FIRST day of the week is the day of the Lord as the Southern Baptist claim.

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

According to the Southern Baptist word the Sabbath day is on the “FIRST” day of the week, but according to the Word of God the Sabbath day is on the “SEVENTH” day of the week. Should we believe the word of man or the Word of God? Who would want you to honor the first day of the week as the Sabbath? God who said the Sabbath day is the “SEVENTH” day of the week or Satan who wants you to disobey the commandments?

But what about Acts 20:7? This clearly shows that the disciples came together on the “FIRST” day of the week to break bread together. So obviously this is the day they honored as being the Sabbath day. Is it? First, let’s read the passage of Scripture and see if that is the conclusion.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

This only tells us that the disciples came together on the first day of the week to break bread together, and that the apostle Paul preached to them. This does not tell us what they did or did not do on the Sabbath day. Therefore, to say that they didn’t met on the seventh day of the week you would have to make it up.

I believe that it is safe to assume that the disciples, seeing that they were Christians did indeed keep the Sabbath day holy as commanded by God. Again, according to the Word of God the Sabbath day is the “SEVENTH” day of the week, and not the “FIRST” day of the week.

Why would I attend a false teaching church? What good could come of it?

As for anger. Anger itself is not sin.

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Someone can make me so angry to the point that I want to cuss them out, or take a brick to their windshield, but it doesn't mean I have to do those things. If I cuss or say something in retaliation to someone in anger, then I wouldn't be bridling my tongue, which then would show that my religion is in vain...

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

For me to do something in anger, I would have to step out of the light to do it. I can't throw a brick through a windshield in the light can I? We are to have self control. Be angry, but don't sin.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, John 6:37 is an absolute truth, but equally true is John 15:2, and Romans 11:20-21.

John 15:2 EVERY BRANCH IN ME THAT BEARETH NOT FRUIT HE TAKETH AWAY: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Note the location of these branches? They are "IN" Jesus, NOT outside of Him.

Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: FOR IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO NOT SPARE THEE.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

I take it you do not believe OSAS.

 

[Iamodd4God]

I take it you do not believe OSAS.

Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold some sixty, some thirty.

Jesus didn't teach OSAS. In this parable Jesus speaks of four groups of people. The first group are those who hear the Word, but it has no effect on them. These are never saved. The next two groups of people are those who hears the Word, and becomes saved, but they fall away. The last group of people are those who hears the Word of God, becomes saved, and bears fruit. The middle two groups of people; do they go to heaven or hell?

How does this prove OSAS is not true? Well take the third group of people for example; they hear the word, and obviously became fruitful, because Jesus said they became unfrutiful. By becoming fruitful shows they became saved, because we cannot produce fruit by ourself unless we have the vine as I will show momentarily. But they became unfruitful; they stopped producing fruit, and we know from Scripture what happens to the branches that stop producing fruit...

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

OSAS? No way! The saved, those who produce fruit, can become unfruitful, and God will take them away. Take them to heaven? Unlikely.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

We cannot produce fruit by ourself unless we are in the vine. If the people in the parable were not in the vine Jesus would not have said that they "become unfruitful" He would have said they never produced fruit. So therefore, the people in the parable that became unfruitful are saved people who became unfruitful.

It is all right there Amy, but why do you reject it? Why do you hold tight to the teachings of man? Jesus doesn't say "OSASO" man says it.

Yes, eternal security is a Biblicla truth, but the WAY it is being taught is not Biblical. If you cannot see that through the parable of the sower, then you are truly spiritually blind, and I pray that your eyes be opened.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Amy.G]

Ken, just curious, do have a denomination? Do you attend a church?

 

[Eliyahu]

Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold some sixty, some thirty.


Only the people of Good grounds are the Believers who hear the Words and perceive them, who go to the Heaven. These are the believers born again by the words of God.

There are degrees among them, 30 times, 60 times, 100 times, 2 times, 5 times, 1000 times.

The rest of the people betray the Words, will go to the Hell. They don't have any degrees. They don't bear the fruits.

This is one of the portion that many misunderstand.

Jn 15 - The branch looked like real part of it, but couldn't bear the fruits because it is not virtually part of the tree. They are fake Christians and will be thrown away into the fire. Fake Christians cannot bear the fruits because they are not connected with the Tree and cannot get the nutrition from the Tree, Jesus Christ. They pretend and look like branches, but they turn out to be withered and will be thrown into the FIRE ! Treu Branches always get the nutrition and water from the Tree and bear the fruits.

 

[Iamodd4God]

Ken, just curious, do have a denomination? Do you attend a church?

Do I attend church? By church I am assuming you mean a congregation of people on Sunday morning inside a building we call church? If so, no. I do however attend "church" every Saturday in our home as we worship God together.

This leads me to your question if I have a denomination or not. No, I do not have a denomination; I am a Christian, not a Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc. These denominations, which are divisions among Christians is NOT supposed to happen Biblically.

1Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Are the denominations "PERFECTLY" joined together in the same mind? No, because if they were there would be no division between them. So the question has to be, which denomination is right and which one is wrong? They all can be wrong, but they all can't be right. So if I were to become a member of a denomination, I would want one that follows the Bible completely. Do any of the denominations follow the Bible completely?

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Amy.G]

Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Ken, I think you have missed an important command of scripture. We are not to "go it alone". Worshiping in your home with your family is not the same thing as "assembling together". We as a church are to encourage and strenghthen one another, be discipled.

We are given teachers and preachers from God. We are to reach out through missions to the lost. If God wanted us to sit at home, we wouldn't need teachers or preachers yet He has appointed some to be so. We would not be able to do much in the way of missions if we did it on a 1 person scale. It takes the group to take on such tasks.

Even in the first Church 2000 years ago, there were problems. Paul had much to say about this, but he never commanded that they disassemble and go home to worship alone. As long as there are humans, there will be problems, but we as members of Christ's body are to rise above that and not abandon one another.

For someone who is so works oriented, you have sure left a lot of works out of your Christian beliefs.

It seems as though you are still trying to live under the law and as the Bible makes crystal clear, no one is justified by the law. You cannot be good enough to be righteous in God's sight.


Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.

None that are good includes you and me.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Amy,

Heb. 10:25 is not talking about building where we come to worship God. It talks about to encourge each other, not neglect or leave them, edify them growing in Christ, encourage them to stand and unity together, because the coming of Christ draw near.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ken: Do I attend church? By church I am assuming you mean a congregation of people on Sunday morning inside a building we call church? If so, no. I do however attend "church" every Saturday in our home as we worship God together.

HP: Don’t allow anyone condemn you for worshiping with your family at home. Worship in ones home does not necessitate one not 'assembling themselves' together. They most likely are as much a group of believers as you would find anywhere. “Where two or three are gathered in My name” is where the Lord is in our midst.

I certainly do not feel that worshiping at home is at all times the most beneficial for the entire family, but let every man and women be convinced in their own mind when and where to worship. May God be near you and your family in times like these. I pray that no matter where you worship or how large or small the congregation, that God might visit among all of you and that by His Spirit you might be encouraged to live a holy life before Him.

Let no man (or women) condemn you for having a clear conscience before God and man. “I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me” is our motto. Holiness unto the Lord is our watchword and song, and with the Lord’s provision we can indeed walk holy and righteous before Him. Be a strong leader. Set the example for others around you of virtue, wisdom, love for God and charity for all men, especially those of the household of faith. :thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I will never forget the look on a Pastors face one day as I sat in his office talking to him about some things he said on the radio. After I related to him why I thought what he said was out of line with the Word of God, he asked me this question. “Where do you worship?” At the time I as well was worshiping in our home with my family. As soon as I said that, he began to chide me about not forsaking the assembly. I let him go on for a while, and then looked squarely into his eyes and said, “Pastor, you have me thinking. I am looking for a good church home. Why don’t I just come visit your Sunday school class this Sunday, and see how it goes.” Immediately, his countenance fell. He looked at me with a worried look. He said, “ Well, I did not mean that you needed to come here, seeing how you believe and you knowing how I teach.”

So much for his admonition about not forsaking the assembly. It was obvious to me that all he wanted to do is find someplace to jab me, having been put on the spot for the remarks he had made on the air. He had about as much concern for me not forsaking the assembly as one does when the tell you to be “warm and filled.”

Oh well. Onward and upward. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iamodd4God]

In response to Amy's post.

AmyG.= "It seems as though you are still trying to live under the law and as the Bible makes crystal clear, no one is justified by the law. You cannot be good enough to be righteous in God's sight."

Please Amy, oh please copy and paste where I have said we are justified by the law. Can you do that? No? Well I wonder why that is? Oh, I know why; because I never said we are justified by the law, that's why.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Amy, it is perfectly clear that the "WHOLE" duty of man is to fear God, AND OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS. Is it not? Okay, now Amy, be VERY careful as to how you answer this next question: Did the "WHOLE" duty of man change after Jesus' death on the cross? To be specific; is it now no longer our duty to obey Gods' commandments? You can give an explanation, but please let it follow a simple yes or no answer.

Now let's take care of the not going to what you deem as being church issue. You quoted...

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

This is a very true Scripture, so Amy could you please point me to which church I should attend? I am looking for a church that teaches 100% Biblical truth. Every church in my city claims to teach 100% Biblical truth, but because they disagree with one another I find it hard to believe that they all teach 100% Biblical truth. So Amy, which one is right, and which one is wrong? They all can be wrong, but they all can't be right.

Amy, how can the church you go to be Biblically sound if it is in itself contrary to the Scriptures?

1Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Is your church perfectly joined together in the same mind as the Methodist? Church of Christ? Lutheran? etc. etc.? Of course not or you all would be one group. Well according to the Word of God, there should not be any divisions among you, so why would God want me to assemble myself with a group of people that is not doing as His Word states? Saying as long as there are people there will be trouble is a cop out. There is no excuse for being divided one from another.

You say that worshipping at home is not the same as assembling together? Well, if we "assemble together" in my home to worship God how is that not assembling Amy? And if having church at home is not Biblical how do you explain...

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Acts 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.

Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1Corinthians 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Colossians 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Seems to me church at home is Biblical.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Amy.G]

Ken: Please Amy, oh please copy and paste where I have said we are justified by the law. Can you do that? No? Well I wonder why that is? Oh, I know why; because I never said we are justified by the law, that's why.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Here is what we learn in the NT from Jesus:

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Ken: Now let's take care of the not going to what you deem as being church issue. You quoted...

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
This is a very true Scripture, so Amy could you please point me to which church I should attend? I am looking for a church that teaches 100% Biblical truth. Every church in my city claims to teach 100% Biblical truth, but because they disagree with one another I find it hard to believe that they all teach 100% Biblical truth. So Amy, which one is right, and which one is wrong? They all can be wrong, but they all can't be right.

Amy, how can the church you go to be Biblically sound if it is in itself contrary to the Scriptures?

It appears that you think that you are the only one who has received the perfect revalation of God. You seem to think that all churches are corrupt and do not obey the word of God, yet you have interpreted the scriptures perfectly.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Ken:

1Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

As I said before, Paul wrote of problems in the churches, but never said they were to disassemble.

Ken: Is your church perfectly joined together in the same mind as the Methodist? Church of Christ? Lutheran? etc. etc.? Of course not or you all would be one group. Well according to the Word of God, there should not be any divisions among you, so why would God want me to assemble myself with a group of people that is not doing as His Word states? Saying as long as there are people there will be trouble is a cop out. There is no excuse for being divided one from another.

As long as they believe in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and that we are saved by grace through faith in His shed blood, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Ken: You say that worshipping at home is not the same as assembling together? Well, if we "assemble together" in my home to worship God how is that not assembling Amy? And if having church at home is not Biblical how do you explain...

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Acts 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.

Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1Corinthians 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Colossians 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Seems to me church at home is Biblical.

These people woshipped in "homes" but it wasn't always their own homes. And they did so because there were no church buildings. These assemblies did not consist of just 1 family. There were thousands in each city. On the day of Pentacost, 3000 were saved at Peter's preaching.
The "church" is the body of Christ consisting of many believers. It doesn't matter if they meet in a home or a building, but the point is that they're were many, many gathering daily together wherever they could.
Those passages are not talking about individual familes holding services in their own private homes apart from other believers.

There is nothing wrong with holding worship services in a private home, but if it only consists of 1 family, that is "family worship time" not the assembling together of believers that Paul is teaching.

 

[BobRyan]

I will never forget the look on a Pastors face one day as I sat in his office talking to him about some things he said on the radio. After I related to him why I thought what he said was out of line with the Word of God, he asked me this question. “Where do you worship?” At the time I as well was worshiping in our home with my family. As soon as I said that, he began to chide me about not forsaking the assembly. I let him go on for a while, and then looked squarely into his eyes and said, “Pastor, you have me thinking. I am looking for a good church home. Why don’t I just come visit your Sunday school class this Sunday, and see how it goes.” Immediately, his countenance fell. He looked at me with a worried look. He said, “ Well, I did not mean that you needed to come here, seeing how you believe and you knowing how I teach.”

So much for his admonition about not forsaking the assembly. It was obvious to me that all he wanted to do is find someplace to jab me, having been put on the spot for the remarks he had made on the air. He had about as much concern for me not forsaking the assembly as one does when the tell you to be “warm and filled.”

Oh well. Onward and upward. :smilewinkgrin:

I am sure I could find a good church for you to attend in your area -
:saint:
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is what we learn in the NT from Jesus:

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

That is the pre-cross teaching of Christ -- just as valid BEFORE the Cross as it is AFTER the cross!

(There is after all - only ONE Gospel in ALL ages)

But since you are talking about NT teaching...

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment and so we can see that they were obeying His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (which in fact is quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)

Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.


Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?


Matt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


Here again we see the NT writers doing that very thing – as they tell us PRIMARILY of the Words and Teaching of Christ PRE-Cross!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Post-cross teaching of the apostles CONTINUES to support that importance of God’s Word – God’s Commandments – and obedience rather than rebellion.

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

 

[Amy.G]

Bob: That is the pre-cross teaching of Christ -- just as valid BEFORE the Cross as it is AFTER the cross!

(There is after all - only ONE Gospel in ALL ages)

But since you are talking about NT teaching...

Bob, I never implied we aren't to keep the commandments. I was quoting Jesus' command that we LOVE God. He never commanded us to FEAR Him the way that Ken is talking about.

When he says "the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep the commandments" he's referring to OT law and it's penalties. Under the new covenant, Christ has kept all the commandments that I have not been able to. I am made righteous in Him because He kept the law perfectly. We are not made righteouse because we keep the law perfectly, because no human ever has or ever will. If we could attain the righteousness of God, we wouldn't need a Savior. Heaven would await all those who kept the law and never sinned.
Even though Abraham was declared righteous because of his faith, he still sinned. No one is sinless. Ken is saying he is sinless.

Even Paul, who was the greatest Christian that ever lived, IMO, struggled with sin:


Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
Rom 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

We will not be free of sin until we shed these corruptible bodies.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: We will not be free of sin until we shed these corruptible bodies.

HP: Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

There is not any evidence in the Word of God that we cannot or will not be free from sin in this present world IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, trusting in the power of the Spirit to keep us from sin. The idea you set forth, i.e. imputed righteousness, suggests that we just keep on sinning just as all sinners do, yet we are forgiven while those that do the same things are condemned yet because we have been declared righteous, God does not see our sin, is simply not according to the Word of God. “Ro 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Heb 2:1 ¶ Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God has promised to free us from sin and corruption “in this present world.” That is not a license to sin which imputed righteousness logically suggests is the case. (NOT that I believe that all who believe in imputed righteous feel they have personally have a license to sin, but rather that such a notion logically suggests it)

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

If imputed righteousness was the case, there would be no need to exercise diligence as the apostle commands.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

God is certainly able and willing that we walk without sin in this present world. Our duty is to avail ourselves by faith to His strength and proffered help. In order to accomplish that, you must first believe that such a state is possible, and then to seek it with our whole hearts, minds, and strength. A man will never attempt to attain that which he or she thinks is a natural impossibility. It all starts with believing.

Amy, do you believe that God is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of God? Do you believe that through the power of the Spirit we can be over comers, made free from sin in this present world? If not, what sin has more power than God has to free us from it?

 

[Mr.M]

Those who are attracted to self-righteousness are always attracted to the denial of the Integrity of Christ to guarantee salvation and the promotion of human effort (i.e. human righteousness) to guarantee salvation. They will scour the Word of God to find any passage they can possibly find to reason that their scheme is legitimate.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

MM: Those who are attracted to self-righteousness are always attracted to the denial of the Integrity of Christ to guarantee salvation and the promotion of human effort (i.e. human righteousness) to guarantee salvation. They will scour the Word of God to find any passage they can possibly find to reason that their scheme is legitimate

HP: Who denies that the sacrifice of Christ is the only thing with the power to cleanse the heart from sins that are past? Who on this list claims that one is righteous apart from the shed blood of Christ for all past sins and the help of the Holy Spirit to keep us from sin? Since when is the desire and practice of present obedience through the empowerment of the Holy spirit, merely ‘self-righteousness?’

So obedience to Gods commands are nothing but self-righteous attempts to gain salvation by works? Are God’s promises to help and strengthen us to obedience nothing more that God inflicting empty and vain self-righteous hopes upon us? Are you suggesting that the promises of the Word of God to help us live righteous and godly in this present world are nothing more than our over-zealous attempts to scour the Word of God for passages that support our manufactured notions?

 

[Mr.M]

Are you suggesting that the promises of the Word of God to help us live righteous and godly in this present world are nothing more than our over-zealous attempts to scour the Word of God for passages that support our manufactured notions?

You mean you didn't read what I said or didn't understand it? Either way let me repost what I said this way you won't be troubled to ask such questions lest you be tempted to twist my words and misrepresent them...and you wouldn't do that of course, right? :laugh:

Those who are attracted to self-righteousness are always attracted to the denial of the Integrity of Christ to guarantee salvation and the promotion of human effort (i.e. human righteousness) to guarantee salvation. They will scour the Word of God to find any passage they can possibly find to reason that their scheme is legitimate.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

MM: You mean you didn't read what I said or didn't understand it? Either way let me repost what I said this way you won't be troubled to ask such questions lest you be tempted to twist my words and misrepresent them

HP: I believe I understood you correctly, and did not misrepresent your remarks in any way.

Try answering the questions I asked. I believe they are pertinent to the logical implications your remarks gender. By answering them, you have the wonderful opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings or false implications.