"Never Saved To Begin With"

[rbell]

show me a church that teaches 100% Biblical truth, and you can bet I would be there.

ummm...yours would be included in that number of imperfect churches.

So you shouldn't go to yours, either.

 

[Iamodd4God]

I am sure I could find a good church for you to attend in your area -
:saint:
in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

Anybody can find a good church, but that doesn't make it "THE" chruch. Churches today are really no different than the synagogues in the Biblical times. They taught out of the OT Scriptures, but they rejected portions of it. Hence the reason they rejected Christ. Still I bet they were good as far as people were concerned. Today churches teach out of the OT and the NT and they too reject portions of Scripture.

So finding a good church though may seem like a good thing to do, it isn't a wise thing to do. I would go to a church, ask what they believe and compare what they believe to the Scriptures. If anything they believe is not supported with Scripture RUN. They may be good, but they are not Godly.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Amy.G]

Ken: But still, show me a church building where what is taught inside 100% Biblical truth

Ken: Also, show me a church that teaches 100% Biblical truth, and you can bet I would be there.

If you really believe what you say, then you have to conclude that "your" church which you attend at home, is just as prone to error as other churches.

You suffer from the sin of pride and arrogance.

I will leave you to your false teachings and self-deception.

 

[Cutter]

This is funny (tongue in cheek). Cutter, if I said to you: "Cutter if you murder someone you will go to jail." You wouldn't say "Don't judge!" But because I say murderers will go to hell, then it is looked on as being judging. "Wow!" So if I say all liars will have their place in the lake of fire, I should expect to be judged by God, because I'm judging others? But, all I'm doing is saying what the Bible says, read Revelation 21:8. So if warning people to NOT lie, telling them where they will go is being judgmental and a sin, then Jesus sinned?

So now we've elevated ourselves to the stature of Jesus! Why am I not surprised.

You wouldn't say that the apostle Paul was a hypocrite I am sure, so allow me to point out your error. As mentioned above warning people about what will happen to those who sin against God is not judging people. The apostle Paul who said: "Therefore judge nothing before the time" also said...

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Was the apostle Paul judging people who do these things by saying they will not inherit the kingdom of God? If not, then how is it that myself or anybody else who says adulterers will not go to heaven is being judgmental?

Paul is speaking the Word as it applied to the perpetrators of the trespasses. He was specific about the trespasses rather than being specific about the trespasees. Your arguments favor judgment of the person more than righteous judgment which Christ said was, John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Again, your focus is on the appearance, i.e. the person, the same judgment the Pharisees and Saducees falsely passed on Christ. I can't look into a man's heart. Only God knows what is in a man's heart. Unless you retort that you know, I would venture to guess Brother Ken doesn't know what is in a man's heart, only his own.

That was spoken like a true minister of the Devil Cutter. Only the devil would say not to worry about others salvation.

Spoken as I expected. Let me assure you only God's knows my ministry and purpose of spirit.

 

[rbell]

So finding a good church though may seem like a good thing to do, it isn't a wise thing to do. I would go to a church, ask what they believe and compare what they believe to the Scriptures. If anything they believe is not supported with Scripture RUN. They may be good, but they are not Godly.

Wow. Just wow. We're not talking doctrine of salvation here...we're talking "not fellowshipping" based on any and every perceived difference of opinion on any and every perceived doctrine.

The results:

• You'll never be involved in a church. (which, BTW, is unscriptural in and of itself). Oh, you may start off in one...but as soon as there is ANY disagreement on ANY Scriptural interpretation, you will, as you said, "run."
• If you are married and/or have kids, your family will suffer because of your stance.
• If you are a pastor...your church will never be a healthy one...because if a church leader takes this kind of view, he will be a spiritual tyrant. Granted...my goal is to not hold on to any erroneous view of anything regarding Scripture. And I feel pretty confident on the "essentials." But I'm not arrogant enough to think that I've got it 100.000000000% right...and I know that if I live long enough, I'll have my view changed on some things. Not every hill is worth dying on.

You said earlier...

Churches today are really no different than the synagogues in the Biblical times. They taught out of the OT Scriptures, but they rejected portions of it. Hence the reason they rejected Christ. Still I bet they were good as far as people were concerned. Today churches teach out of the OT and the NT and they too reject portions of Scripture.

It's nice to know that you have visited every single church in Christendom and can speak authoritatively on the subject. You try and do a "guilt by association" thing and imply that churches have rejected Christ. This is offensive, and I don't appreciate your calling the church I serve heretical. I'd appreciate your not doing that again. You don't know my church, and you have no business making unfounded accusations about it.

Your view borders on cultic.

 

[pinoybaptist]

rbell, for once you seem to be actually smarter than me.

just kiddin'.

:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bro. Williams: What about Paul? Was he righteous before of after he disobeyed the Holy Spirit.. what was it, three times?

HP: I must have missed that one. Where do you find that reference?

 

[Hope of Glory]

So if I say all liars will have their place in the lake of fire

Actually, it's their part that shall be in the lake of fire in the passage you are referencing, if I'm not badly mistaken, not that their place is in the lake of fire.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hope of Glory: Actually, it's their part that shall be in the lake of fire

HP: And what is the meaning of their ‘part?’

 

[Iamodd4God]

Actually, it's their part that shall be in the lake of fire in the passage you are referencing, if I'm not badly mistaken, not that their place is in the lake of fire.

Why did you palce emphasis on "part"? What do you suppose Jesus meant by saying "shall have THEIR PART IN the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."???

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[BobRyan]

Hope of Glory means that for part of the time they burn and then for the rest of the time they go to heaven.

It is a "hell is really just purgatory" kind of doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, it's their part that shall be in the lake of fire in the passage you are referencing, if I'm not badly mistaken, not that their place is in the lake of fire.

"Their part" indicates that when THEY are consumed in the flames of the lake of fire THEY are not the ONLY ones that are burned there -- others also have THEIR part (Satan and his angels for example) in burning there.

Those brave men who died at Normandy played their part in the WWII story - but they did not then go on to do more things after Normandy to liberate Europe. That ended "their part" once they charged -- and then were killed.

 

[Iamodd4God]

Wow. Just wow. We're not talking doctrine of salvation here...we're talking "not fellowshipping" based on any and every perceived difference of opinion on any and every perceived doctrine.

The results:

• You'll never be involved in a church. (which, BTW, is unscriptural in and of itself). Oh, you may start off in one...but as soon as there is ANY disagreement on ANY Scriptural interpretation, you will, as you said, "run."

• 
  
  Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses CONTRARY TO THE DOCTRINE which ye have learned; and AVOID THEM.
  
  Exactly where am I Scripturally in error here?
  
  

  [*]If you are married and/or have kids, your family will suffer because of your stance.

  
  If I keep my wife and children from a false teaching church how exactly will they suffer? Please explain your philosophy.
  
  

  [*]If you are a pastor...your church will never be a healthy one...because if a church leader takes this kind of view, he will be a spiritual tyrant.

  
  So are you saying that God is a spiritual tyrant? God inspired the apostle Paul to write Romans 16:17 and according to you anyone who holds that kind of view is a spiritual tyrant.
  
  

  Granted...my goal is to not hold on to any erroneous view of anything regarding Scripture. And I feel pretty confident on the "essentials." But I'm not arrogant enough to think that I've got it 100.000000000% right...and I know that if I live long enough, I'll have my view changed on some things.

  
  Are there non-essential Scriptures? If so, why are they in the Bible? As for you not being arrogant enough to think that you've got it 100.000000% right; don't you have a Bible? If so, then why can't you have it 100.000000% right?
  
  2Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
  
  By saying you don't have it 100.000000% right then you have to admit that you are not thoroughly furnished. Well if that is the case, then I suggest you start reading the Bible, AND accepting it.
  
  

  It's nice to know that you have visited every single church in Christendom and can speak authoritatively on the subject. You try and do a "guilt by association" thing and imply that churches have rejected Christ. This is offensive, and I don't appreciate your calling the church I serve heretical. I'd appreciate your not doing that again. You don't know my church, and you have no business making unfounded accusations about it.

  
  Any church that does not teach 100.000000% Biblical truth is a heretical church. You being offended or not doesn't change the facts. My uncle was offended as he beat his fist on the table yealling "IT IS NOT HERESY" as he tried to defend his OSAS belief. He couldn't prove me wrong with Scripture, but he was convinced because "according to John MacArthur that verse means...".
  
  If you are a Baptist I DO know your church as I was raised in the Baptist faith. If you're not a Baptist then please do tell me how your church teaches 100.000000% Biblical truth, and how you are the only true church. The one TRUE church is going to teach 100.000000% Biblical truth as God is not okay with His Word not being taught fully and accurately.
  
  

  Your view borders on cultic.

  
  Wait a minute rbell; does church attendance save you? If not, how is it that my view borders cultic and still is not Christian? So much for your essentials and non-essentials beliefs huh?
  
  In the name of Jesus Christ,
  
  Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

If you really believe what you say, then you have to conclude that "your" church which you attend at home, is just as prone to error as other churches.

You suffer from the sin of pride and arrogance.

I will leave you to your false teachings and self-deception.

Thanks for proving the Scripture to be true Amy...

1Peter 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

Believe what you want to believe that is your choice, but know that when you stand before God almighty you will then not be able to dodge His Word. Your leaning on the man made beliefs will crumble from beneath you and you will fall into the pit with them, because you being blind are being lead to the gates of destruction.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Amy.G]

Thanks for proving the Scripture to be true Amy...

1Peter 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

Believe what you want to believe that is your choice, but know that when you stand before God almighty you will then not be able to dodge His Word. Your leaning on the man made beliefs will crumble from beneath you and you will fall into the pit with them, because you being blind are being lead to the gates of destruction.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

Thank you for you loving words. and you're self righteous judgement against me, but I will not be leaning on man's words or any other thing when I face God. I will be leaning on the Christ that saved me from the penalty of my sins. I will be safe in the shadow of His wings. I will be standing on the foundation of God's word that He has revealed to my heart and planted deep within. I have built my house on the Rock and cannot be moved.
My righteousness is as filthy rags in the presence of God, but praise Him, He doesn't see my filth. He sees Christ, my Lord and my God. My precious Savior!

In this I have the peace that passes all understanding!

PRAISE :jesus:

 

[Iamodd4God]

So now we've elevated ourselves to the stature of Jesus! Why am I not surprised.

Are we not to walk as He walked?

1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Still you didn't prove what I said was wrong.

Paul is speaking the Word as it applied to the perpetrators of the trespasses. He was specific about the trespasses rather than being specific about the trespasees. Your arguments favor judgment of the person more than righteous judgment which Christ said was, John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Your argument above falls short on proving how I am wrong by saying people who murder will go to hell. By me saying that am I saying anything different than what the apostle Paul said? No, so why am I being considered as being judgmental where the apostle Paul wasn't?

Again, your focus is on the appearance, i.e. the person, the same judgment the Pharisees and Saducees falsely passed on Christ. I can't look into a man's heart. Only God knows what is in a man's heart. Unless you retort that you know, I would venture to guess Brother Ken doesn't know what is in a man's heart, only his own.

Ironically the title of this thread is "Never Saved To Begin With" and here you are declaring how we cannot know what is in people's hearts, so that being the case how can you say that this person or that person was never saved to begin with?

Spoken as I expected. Let me assure you only God's knows my ministry and purpose of spirit.

I don't deny that.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

Thank you for you loving words. and you're self righteous judgement against me, but I will not be leaning on man's words or any other thing when I face God. I will be leaning on the Christ that saved me from the penalty of my sins. I will be safe in the shadow of His wings. I will be standing on the foundation of God's word that He has revealed to my heart and planted deep within. I have built my house on the Rock and cannot be moved.
My righteousness is as filthy rags in the presence of God, but praise Him, He doesn't see my filth. He sees Christ, my Lord and my God. My precious Savior!

In this I have the peace that passes all understanding!

PRAISE :jesus:

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luke 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like:
Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luke 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built a house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

You say you built your house on the rock and it cannot be moved, but yet you admit that you don't obey God, and you believe that obedience to God is not possible. That isn't a foundation of rock, it's a foundation of sand.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Bottom line; don't obey the commandments and don't have the right to the tree of life. If you don't agree simply take a black magic marker to Revelation 22:14 and never read it again.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[rbell]

Any church that does not teach 100.000000% Biblical truth is a heretical church. You being offended or not doesn't change the facts. My uncle was offended as he beat his fist on the table yealling "IT IS NOT HERESY" as he tried to defend his OSAS belief. He couldn't prove me wrong with Scripture, but he was convinced because "according to John MacArthur that verse means...".

If you are a Baptist I DO know your church as I was raised in the Baptist faith. If you're not a Baptist then please do tell me how your church teaches 100.000000% Biblical truth, and how you are the only true church. The one TRUE church is going to teach 100.000000% Biblical truth as God is not okay with His Word not being taught fully and accurately.

Wait a minute rbell; does church attendance save you? If not, how is it that my view borders cultic and still is not Christian? So much for your essentials and non-essentials beliefs huh?

It's nice to know that you are the guardian of 100.0000000000% truth. Thanks for your service.

It's also nice to know that you are not wrong about anything. You have elevated yourself to the status of Christ. Mighty arrogant.

My hope is that you're young and naive. If not, then God help you, and may your following be oh so small.

Church attendance doesn't save you, but mark this: You willingly forsake church? You are not a mature Christian.

Keep talking. I'll keep handing you the rope.

 

[Iamodd4God]

It's nice to know that you are the guardian of 100.0000000000% truth. Thanks for your service.

It's also nice to know that you are not wrong about anything. You have elevated yourself to the status of Christ. Mighty arrogant.

My hope is that you're young and naive. If not, then God help you, and may your following be oh so small.

Church attendance doesn't save you, but mark this: You willingly forsake church? You are not a mature Christian.

Keep talking. I'll keep handing you the rope.

Make no mistake, it isn't "THE" church that I willingly forsake; it is the false teaching churches that I willingly forsake. And not surprising is the fact that as of yet you STILL have not provided me with Scripture proving me wrong for doing so.

You say that I am being arrogant? "Keep talking and I'll keep handing you the rope." How arrogant is that? :thumbs:

You still haven't made the claim the your church teaches 100% Biblical truth. Why not? And how about some Scripture proving to me that "THE" Church is not required to teach the Word of God completely and 100% accurately.

In the name of Jesus Christ,

Ken

 

[Hope of Glory]

Bob Ryan, you're going to hell.

So am I.

So are we all, unless the rapture comes first.

Don't confuse "hell" with the lake of fire. The KJV (and a few other translations) translate four different words as "hell", and two of them are simply the grave. So, we're all going to hell.

But, "gehenna" is a warning that is given to saved people. It's figurative, not literal like the lake of fire is.

Revelation 21:8 tells us, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

They shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire. His share will be burned and consumed. It’s their part or their share. You can lose your reward; your privileges; your right to rule and reign with the Lord in his coming Kingdom.

Keep this word “part” in your minds. The Lord used the disciples in a lot of ways to teach us a lot of lessons. In John 13, Jesus took the disciples to the upper room in John 13:4-7a: "He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now..."

Well, Peter knew he was washing his feet, didn't he? So there was a spiritual lesson here. There was a lesson that was deeper than the simple physical lesson being taught.

Verse 7b-8 says, "What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me."

"No share with me." This word “share” is the same word that we saw in Revelation 21:8.

Jesus washed his feet. He cleansed him. He helped him have a clean walk. But, there is something you can do that will assure you that you will have a share with the Lord Jesus. He cleanses us and he does this other than simply redeeming our spirits; it has to do with our soul. It has to do with our life.

Luke 10:38-39: Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.

You’re going to see a contrast, and I want you to pay attention to it.

Luke 10:40: But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

And he didn’t do that, did he?

Luke 10:41: And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

Potatoes, beans, moose roast… But look what he says in verse 42: “Mary has chosen that good part”, or “share”. It’s sitting at Jesus’ feet and hearing his word. That’s the thing that is of great value. He said to her in verse 42, “one thing is needful”.

In your life, this one thing is needful. In Philippians 3, Paul understood this and said in Philippians 3:10-11: "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

It's the out-resurrection; it's the resurrection from among the dead. This is a picture of when Peter stepped out of the boat.

Everyone criticizes Peter for seeing the waves, but he’s the only one who stepped out! Why don’t people criticize Bartholomew for not stepping out? You see, at the Second Coming, the Lord will take out from among his disciples, those who have sought this one thing.

Philippians 3:12-14: Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

That’s the greatest message I can tell you as a believer. The best thing that I can try to teach you is this: that even though you possess within yourselves the qualities that will disqualify you from the New Jerusalem, just as the disciples did, the Lord Jesus can cleanse you; he can teach you; he can help you to be acceptable in his sight so that one day, you will hear, “well done good and faithful servant”.

That's what "part" has to do with.