News: RE: Jerusalem - President Bush's Road Map for a Palestinian State

LadyEagle · Apr 28, 2003

This is getting very little press coverage, outflanked by the War in Iraq. Therefore, many people, including Americans aren't even aware of what is going on with the Road Map.

This is from the Palestinian web site and being posted FYI.

Summary of Palestinian Positions towards Permanent Issues

Jerusalem:

As stated in the 1993 Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, Jerusalem (and not merely East Jerusalem) is the subject of permanent status negotiations. As part of the territory occupied in 1967, East Jerusalem is subject to United Nations Security Council 242. It is part of the territory over which the Palestinian state shall exercise sovereignty upon its establishment. The State of Palestine shall declare Jerusalem as its capital.

Jerusalem should be an open city. Within Jerusalem, irrespective of the resolution of the question of sovereignty, there should be no physical partition that would prevent the free circulation of persons within it. As to sites of religious significance, most of which are located within the Old City in East Jerusalem, Palestine shall be committed to guaranteeing freedom of worship and access there. Palestine will take all possible measures to protect such sites and preserve their dignity.
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Link

The Rough Draft of the Palestinian Road Map proposed by the "Quartet" (comprised of US--President Bush, UN, Russia, and the EU) can be seen here:

http://www.pna.net/new/roadmap.html

My Bible says Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, the City of David. If Jerusalem is handed over to be the capital of the planned New State of Palestine, I believe we can expect God's Hand of Blessing to be Totally Withdrawn from America.

In addition, I believe any discussion of the proposed "Road Map for Palestinian Statehood" only rewards terrorism and suicide bombers.

Nothing should even be discussed until:

Arafat rescinds his intifada and abolishes and roots out all terrorist groups under territory in his control, including: Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigade, Hezbollah, Hamas, Palestinian Jihad and others.

There is at least 1 year free of suicide bombings in Israel.

That should be little to ask from a people who say they want peace.

Realistically, those two items will never happen, for it is the desire of many Palestinians to drive Israel into the sea - these are the new Nazis of our century.

Those who are concerned about the status of Jerusalem and the "Road Map for Palestinian Statehood" that is trying to be pushed through can email President BUsh:

president@whitehouse.gov

Link to a Good Letter from Israel to President Bush re: Road Map

A good commentary written by Daniel Pipes:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1015

[ May 22, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]

Johnv · Apr 28, 2003

My Bible says Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, the City of David.

Okay, but the biblical Israel no longer exists. What we have now is a state in the midle east which took the biblical name "Israel" as its own.

I believe any discussion of the proposed "Road Map for Palestinian Statehood" only rewards terrorism and suicide bombers.
One cannot discuss terrorst acts you mention without also accepting that Israel is by no means innocent of the same, albeit not the an equivalent degree, imo. But terrorism or not, there will be a Palestinian state. The questionat hand should address the best way to achieve it.

go2church · Apr 28, 2003

I fail to see how the those who are oppossed to a Palastinian state don't see the irony in their oppossition. How was current day Israel established? Other countries (for pay back and to "get rid of the Jews") "established" the country of Israel. Did many oppose it? Yes, many did oppose it. So tell me how is this different then other countries coming together and establishing a Palastian state? I think perhaps the dispensational bug of inconsistentsy has bitten hard once again.

LadyEagle · Apr 28, 2003

One little fact is often overlooked (by Zionist haters) - thousands upon thousands of Jews were to be turned from Arab countries into the created State of Israel and in exchange, the Arabs there were to return to the Arab countries (like Jordan). The Jews left the Arab countries & went back to Israel but the Arabs in Israel didn't leave. All this dates back to when the British Empire took control from the Ottoman Empire, many years ago, and the subsequent creation of the State of Israel after WW2. Palestinians never were indiginous to that land. Even Arafat is from Egypt.

It has nothing to do with dispensations. (You see, Jesus will reign from the Throne of David as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah whether you or I believe it or support it or not, or whether or not we believe in dispensations---because that is the Prophecy which is yet to be fulfilled. You either believe the Bible or you don't. )

It has everything to do with the Apple of God's Eye. Whomever blesses Israel, God will bless. Who curses Israel, God will curse. Even though that's in the OT, God doesn't change. He's the Same Yesterday, Today, and Forever.

And Johnv, Israelis don't teach their children to blow up people with suicide bombs. So don't even go there. That's like comparing apples with meat...meaning they aren't even in the same category with which to make a comparison.

REALITY CHECK

Okay, I'm not gonna debate with you 2 or those in your camp on this. (Obviously you are not in the Evangelical majority. ) Besides, I'm a moderator in this forum so have to watch my P's and Q's.

But the info is here for those who agree with the Bible that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, feel the creation of a Palestinian State is rewarding terrorism, and who want to email their concerns to the President. Over and out on this subject. Feel free to carry on....

go2church · Apr 28, 2003

You see, Jesus will reign from the Throne of David as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah whether you or I believe it or support it or not, or whether or not we believe in dispensations---because that is the Prophecy which is yet to be fulfilled. You either believe the Bible or you don't.
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I know you don't want to debate fine, but I do have one question, where is Jesus now?

LadyEagle · Apr 28, 2003

In my heart.

Matt Black · Apr 29, 2003

Another question for you, if you would be so kind: which terrorists blew up the King David Hotel?

Yours in Christ

Matt

LadyEagle · Apr 29, 2003

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Another question for you, if you would be so kind: which terrorists blew up the King David Hotel?

Yours in Christ

Matt
Click to expand...

The Bombing of the King David Hotel happened on

June 29, 1946 -

before either you or I were born!

But, Matt, let's take a look at the # of homicide bombings that have happened just since last March 2002 against the Jews in Israel:

Breaking news just Today: April 29, 2003:
Terror attack in Tel Aviv, 3 dead, 15 wounded
A terror attack took place in Tel Aviv this evening murdering at least 3 people and injuring at least 15. Israel radio reports that a suicide bomber entered Mike's Place, a coffee house near the US Embassy in Tel Aviv.

April 24, 2003 A Palestinian suicide bomber killed a security guard and injured 12 bystanders - two seriously - in a rush hour explosion at a train station.

(***There may be more in between here, my list may be incomplete.***)

March 5, 2003 - 16 people, including many school children, were massacred by a Palestinian homicide bomber who blew himself up in a crowded bus in the northern Israeli city of Haifa -

January 5, 2003 - 23 people were killed, and more than 80 were wounded when two Palestinian murderers from the Islamic Jihad blew themselves up..

November 21, 2002 - Massacre in Jerusalem: a Palestinian homicide/suicide bomber detonated an explosives belt packed with nuts and bolts to maximize the impact inside a Jerusalem bus filled with schoolchildren. Eleven Israelis were murdered and over 50 wounded in the terrorist attack

November 4, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber blew himself up in a crowded shopping center in Israeli town of Kfar Saba. Two Israelis were murdered and 32 wounded in the terrorist attack, including two infants

October 27, 2002 - A Palestinian homicide/suicide bomber blew himself up outside a gas station outside the Israeli town of Ariel, killing himelf, two Israelis and wounding over 30. Ten to 15 of the wounded were in serious condition, media reports said.

October 21, 2002 - Fourteen people were killed and 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms (200 lbs) of explosives was detonated next to an Israeli bus traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 towards Hadera.

October 10, 2002 - A Palestinian terrorist slips while boarding an Israeli bus and falls. The bus driver and a fellow passenger then pinned the bomber to the ground after seeing some wires sticking out of his clothing, and screamed: "It's a terrorist! Everybody get out of here!". Unfortunately, the incompetent Palestinian morron managed to blow himself up murdering Sa'ada Aharon, a 71-year-old grandmother of 15, and injuring over two dozen

September 19, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber blew himself up in a crowded bus in Tel-Aviv, deliberately murdering 5 and wounding over 60 Israeli men, women and children.

September 18, 2002 - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up at a busy intersection outside the Israeli-Arab city of Umm el Fahm, killing a police officer and wounding three people.

August 4, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber blew himself up on a bus at the height of morning rush hour traffic near the Israeli town of Tsfat. Nine passengers were killed and over 50 innocent human beings were seriously injured. The explosion blew off the roof of the bus and the vehicle then burst into flames.

July 31, 2002 - Seven Israeli students were slaughtered when a very powerful bomb exploded inside a school bag on a table inside a Hebrew University cafeteria in Jerusalem. Over 80 people were injured by the blast, including 14 that are currently in critical condition

July 17, 2002 - At least three people were killed and more than 30 wounded in a double genocide bombing in the heart of Tel Aviv.

June 19, 2002 - Seven Israeli unarmed civilians were killed and 37 injured when a Palestinian genocide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop.

June 18, 2002 - A Palestinian homicide/suicide bomber detonated an explosive device packed with nails and metal shards on a crowded city bus in Jerusalem during morning rush hour, killing 19 passengers and wounding dozens more. Many high-school students were killed in the blast.

June 12, 2002 - A Palestinian homicide/suicide bomber killed Hadar Hershkowitz, a 15-year-old Israeli girl, and wounded 10 others when he blew himself up in the middle of a group of people in a restaurant in Herzliya, just north of Tel-Aviv.

June 5, 2002 - A Palestinian terrorist drove a car packed with a large quantity of explosives into an Israeli bus (Egged No. 830) traveling from Tel-Aviv to Tiberias at the Megiddo junction near Afula. 17 people were killed and over 50 were injured

May 27, 2002 - A Palestinian homicide/suicide bomber blows himself in front of a coffee shop in Petah Tikvah, east of Tel-Aviv, killing two and injuring over 30. A 3 year old girl is reported dead, while an 18 month infant is reported critically injured.

May 22, 2002 - A suicide bomber blows himself up on the pedestrian mall in Rishon Letzion, 15 km (10mi) southeast of Tel Aviv shortly after 9 p.m. Two people are killed in the blast and over 30 others are wounded.

May 19, 2002 - An homicide/suicide bomber rocks Netanya main market killing three and wounding dozens.

May 8, 2002 - A suicide bomber strikes at a snooker club in Rishon Letzion south of Tel Aviv, killing 16 Israelis and wounding 60.

April 12, 2002 - Female suicide bomber blows herself up at the Mahane Yehuda market, Jerusalem's main outdoor market, killing six people and wounding over 100.

April 10, 2002 - A Palestinian suicide bomber kills eight and wounds 12 when he blows himself up on a bus crowded with commuters near the northern city of Haifa.

March 31, 2002 - Suicide bomber blows himself up in the Matza restaurant run by Israeli Arabs in the northern port city of Haifa, 15 people are killed and 44 are injured. A second suicide attack wounds six people at the West Bank settlement of Efrat.

March 30, 2002 - Suicide bomber blows himself up in a busy Tel Aviv restaurant on Allenby Street, at least 20 people are hurt.

March 29, 2002 - Woman suicide bomber blows herself up at a supermarket in the Kiryat Yovel suburb of Jerusalem, killing two people and injuring at least 20.

March 27, 2002 - On Passover (a Jewish Holiday), a Palestinian genocide bomber walked into the dining room a hotel, located in the center of Netanya, where 250 guests had just sat down to begin dinner. He detonated an explosive device, killing 22 and injuring 140, including many children and elderly.

March 21, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber detonated a bomb, packed with metal spikes and nails, in the center of a crowd of shoppers on King George Street in Jerusalem. Three unarmed civilians were killed and 86 were injured.

March 20, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber blows himself up on a bus near the Israeli Arab town of Umm al-Fahm, killing seven people and wounding 27.

March 9, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber kills 11 people and injures 54 by blowing himself up in a crowded Cafe in Jerusalem. The bomber walked into the Cafe Moment and detonated a powerful explosive charge that completely gutted the restaurant. The cafe was teeming with dozens of people at the time of the attack.

March 5, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber blew himself up on a bus in the Israeli city of Afula, killing one and wounding at least five.

March 2, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber detonated a bomb next to a group of women waiting with their baby carriages for their husbands to leave a nearby synagogue. Ten people, including five children, were killed.
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Source Link

Another list from USA Today

April 2003 Poll Results: 59% of Palestinians support suicide bombers! 65% support the Intifada and 60% support attacks inside the Green Line.

Source Link

Media Show Link

Media Show - History in a Nutshell

You can't make "peace" deals with terrorists. Just Today Hamas proclaimed the Suicide Bombings would not stop, no matter what Palestinian Cabinet was in place.

The facts speak for themselves.

Matt Black · Apr 30, 2003

I note you have failed to answer my question.

Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
[
Nothing should even be discussed until:

Arafat rescinds his intifada and abolishes and roots out all terrorist groups under territory in his control, including: Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigade, Hezbollah, Hamas, Palestinian Jihad and others.

There is at least 1 year free of suicide bombings in Israel.

That should be little to ask from a people who say they want peace.

[
Click to expand...

I presume that you will elicit a similar undertaking from the Israeli government to end their illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and not to usew violence against the Palestinians during that year also?

Yours in Christ

Matt

LadyEagle · Apr 30, 2003

What question was it I failed to answer?

Why would Christians defend Palestinian homicide bombers and their god, Allah?

Matt Black · Apr 30, 2003

Who blew up the King David Hotel? And I don't think anyone is defending suicide bombers.

Yours in Christ

Matt

Johnv · Apr 30, 2003

The Jews left the Arab countries & went back to Israel but the Arabs in Israel didn't leave.

Therein lies the problem. Arabs who lived in what is now Israel were being forced to leave their home, against their will. Who among us would want to leave our homes if we were told we had to. We in the US shoulr empathize, since we bear the unfortunate history of displacing hundreds of thousands ot Native Americans from their homelands.

I'm not saying it's the fault of the Jews, Paletinians, or anyone else. I'm saying it's the lack of understanding of this one point that causes much confusion. And we all know who the author of confusion is, don't we???

LadyEagle · Apr 30, 2003

Yes, we know who the author of confusion is. We also know who the author of murder is. I am not confused about the issue. But those who support the creation of a Palestinian State clearly are confused.

The Bible clearly states to whom the land belongs and even lays out the boundaries. What about the Jews who were in Arab countries who were displaced? They went to Israel.

The problem is that only one side fulfilled the agreement, that being Israel.

Fact: The Arab world has warred against Israel 3 separate times since the creation of the the State of Israel. Israel only defended herself and gained the "occupied territories" as a result of those wars. It's called the "spoils of war." In other words, they reclaimed the land that was originally supposed to be theirs, both by Divine Providence (the Bible) and by the original UN agreement.

KenH · Apr 30, 2003

Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
One little fact is often overlooked (by Zionist haters
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Hey, SheEagle9/11, calm down. Just because one is not a dispensational premillennialist does not mean he is a hater of Jews.

KenH · Apr 30, 2003

Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
The Bible clearly states to whom the land belongs and even lays out the boundaries.
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It is amazing how people can speak so confidently that out of the gazillion eshatological interpretations based on the Bible theirs is the correct one - nothing doubting.

bobfrgsn · Apr 30, 2003

sheeagle ... I guess "the facts speak for themselves" depending on where you get your "facts" from and what "facts" you want to believe. I believe the middle east crisis will resolve itself when the palestinians are settled into their own state and all of the Israeli's have vacated all of the illegally occupied territories. Sorry I don't share your particular understanding of the Bible .... there is no place for the Israeli's as a special people of God ... Jesus took care of that ... in fact he was the last Biblical Jew ... IMHO

Sharon the peace maker: Yeah right!

http://www.arabnews.com/Cartoon.asp?ArY=03&ArM=04&ArD=26

LadyEagle · Apr 30, 2003

in fact he was the last Biblical Jew ... IMHO
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Paul doesn't count, then, eh?

LadyEagle · Apr 30, 2003

Wow, you guys are really something. So, rewarding terrorism (homicide bombers) is really going to pay off for "peace." Believe that fantasy if you will. Obviously, I can't confuse you with facts, either present facts, historical facts, Islamic Fundamentalism facts, or Biblical facts.

Now I'll calmly leave this discussion before I lose my temper. The Nazi mentality appears to be alive and well on this board.

I've posted enough information and links on this thread for inquiring minds to seek out the truth regarding the Road Map and the historical creation of the Nation of Israel.

When the Road Map fails (as it will), when Jerusalem is given away to become the Palestinian capital, you will see God's Hand of Protection removed from America. 09/11 will pale in comparison to that. Just remember this thread when that day happens.

The Voice Crying in the Wilderness,
SheEagle9/11
A Friend of Israel

Even so, Come, Lord Jesus.

Johnv · Apr 30, 2003

SheEagle, I'm curious why you support a theocratic governmet. Israel is a theocratic government.

Would it not be more appropriate to support a secular Israel?

Support of a teocratic Israel certainly can't be biblical, since Judaism rejects Christ.

Don't get me wrong, I support Israel, but I also favor a Palestinian State. The two are not exclusive.

Johnv · Apr 30, 2003

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but what we know as Israel IS NOT the same as Israel in the OT. The present State of Israel simply adopted the OT name. Prophecies about Israel in the Bible aren't necessarily referring to Israel today.

So says Shimon Peres, former Prime Minister of Israel.

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