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No Apostles and Prophets needed?
- Thread starter ChurchBoy
- Start date
AZfiddler_Oct1996
New Member
Acts 1
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Hello, ChurchBoy!
I verse 22 it says, "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."
We don't have apostles anymore because one of the requirements to be an apostle was to have seen Christ.
In Christ,
Alycia
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
I verse 22 it says, "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."
We don't have apostles anymore because one of the requirements to be an apostle was to have seen Christ.
In Christ,
Alycia
Hebrew 1Originally posted by ChurchBoy:
Can someone give me a Scripturely-based Baptist position on why the office of Apostle and Prophet no longer exists or is no longer needed? I'm doing a research project on this topic.
Thanks,
ChurchBoy
"Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds."
The means in the past God used to speak to people through prophets, but in these last days (imply the world is gonna end any minute), God speak to us through Christ. Therefore there will be no more prophets.
tamborine lady
Active Member
Well of course! This world is in such good shape and so intellagent that WE have no need for Prophets and apostles!
Rev. 3-17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Peace,
Tam
Hebrew 1Originally posted by Joeman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ChurchBoy:
Can someone give me a Scripturely-based Baptist position on why the office of Apostle and Prophet no longer exists or is no longer needed? I'm doing a research project on this topic.
Thanks,
ChurchBoy
"Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds."
The means in the past God used to speak to people through prophets, but in these last days (imply the world is gonna end any minute), God speak to us through Christ. Therefore there will be no more prophets. </font>[/QUOTE]That don't make since if you read some of Pauls letters to the Corinthians.
1Cor. 14:1 -
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Cor. 14:31 -
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Cor. 14:39 -
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Although this prophecy that Paul is speaking of seems to be for comfort and learning. Might be like me saying....... your head and not the tail...you'll be blessed going in the city and blessed going out.....and here is one that just came to mind....if you continue to poke a sleeping dog, don't be surprized if he wakes up and bite the hand that pokes him...... sounds like something my Granny would have said.
Music4Him
AZfiddler_Oct1996
New Member
Hebrew 1Originally posted by music4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joeman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ChurchBoy:
Can someone give me a Scripturely-based Baptist position on why the office of Apostle and Prophet no longer exists or is no longer needed? I'm doing a research project on this topic.
Thanks,
ChurchBoy
"Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds."
The means in the past God used to speak to people through prophets, but in these last days (imply the world is gonna end any minute), God speak to us through Christ. Therefore there will be no more prophets. </font>[/QUOTE]That don't make since if you read some of Pauls letters to the Corinthians.
1Cor. 14:1 -
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Cor. 14:31 -
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Cor. 14:39 -
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Although this prophecy that Paul is speaking of seems to be for comfort and learning. Might be like me saying....... your head and not the tail...you'll be blessed going in the city and blessed going out.....and here is one that just came to mind....if you continue to poke a sleeping dog, don't be surprized if he wakes up and bite the hand that pokes him...... sounds like something my Granny would have said.
Music4Him </font>[/QUOTE]Music4Him,
When Paul wrote that, the Word of God wasn't completed yet.
-AZf
The verses at the beginning of Hebrews clearly do not teach that there would be no more prophets after Christ. To interpret it to say so is to say it contradicts other Scripture. Christ said, 'Behold I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes...' Acts and I Corinthians mention prophets after the resurrection.
Also, notice that Paul did not fit the requirements Peter laid out in Acts 1. Peter was taling about the requirements for being one of the 12, not for being an apostle per se. After Christ ascended, He still gave the gift of apostles and prophets to men according to Ephesians 4. There are more than 12 people identified as apostles in the Bible, including Paul, Barnabas, and a few others.
In Acts, we see that the Lord could speak to a church and through it to separate apostles to ministry that He sends out. These men go out and start other churches and appointed elders. The Bible is our guidebook for church structure and the functioning of the church.
What do a lot of churches do? They throw out Biblical terminology and Biblical conceprts of church government and invent their own position, redefining terms like 'pastor' and 'deacon' to fit into a new mold. Some of the apostles in the Bible function as missionaries. In fact, the word 'missionary' comes from a Latin word used to translate the Greek word for 'apostle' in the Bible.
Also, notice that Paul did not fit the requirements Peter laid out in Acts 1. Peter was taling about the requirements for being one of the 12, not for being an apostle per se. After Christ ascended, He still gave the gift of apostles and prophets to men according to Ephesians 4. There are more than 12 people identified as apostles in the Bible, including Paul, Barnabas, and a few others.
In Acts, we see that the Lord could speak to a church and through it to separate apostles to ministry that He sends out. These men go out and start other churches and appointed elders. The Bible is our guidebook for church structure and the functioning of the church.
What do a lot of churches do? They throw out Biblical terminology and Biblical conceprts of church government and invent their own position, redefining terms like 'pastor' and 'deacon' to fit into a new mold. Some of the apostles in the Bible function as missionaries. In fact, the word 'missionary' comes from a Latin word used to translate the Greek word for 'apostle' in the Bible.
AZfiddler_Oct1996
New Member
All of the prophesies have been given but not all have been fulfilled.Originally posted by music4Him:
~AZf.......see the thread: "When is it complete".
Music4Him
-Alycia
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Paul was an Apostle and he didn't see Jesus in the Flesh...
As soon as we accept his seeing Jesus in a Vision we then have to accept the possibility of a Modern Apostle also seeing Jesus in a Vision and recieving such a divine calling...
Not, that I think we have an acceptable standard for such an offivce to properly exist...
We may have men who walk in apostolic power...
But, they are not Apostles nor should we give them heed as if they held Apostolic Authority...
Just compare the heart, anointing, and standard the early Apostles held themselves to...
As soon as we accept his seeing Jesus in a Vision we then have to accept the possibility of a Modern Apostle also seeing Jesus in a Vision and recieving such a divine calling...
Not, that I think we have an acceptable standard for such an offivce to properly exist...
We may have men who walk in apostolic power...
But, they are not Apostles nor should we give them heed as if they held Apostolic Authority...
Just compare the heart, anointing, and standard the early Apostles held themselves to...
AZfiddler_Oct1996
New Member
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Acts 1:22
They had to have witnessed His resurrection.
-Alycia
Acts 1:22
They had to have witnessed His resurrection.
-Alycia
Hebrew 1Originally posted by AZfiddler_Oct1996:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joeman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ChurchBoy:
Can someone give me a Scripturely-based Baptist position on why the office of Apostle and Prophet no longer exists or is no longer needed? I'm doing a research project on this topic.
Thanks,
ChurchBoy
"Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds."
The means in the past God used to speak to people through prophets, but in these last days (imply the world is gonna end any minute), God speak to us through Christ. Therefore there will be no more prophets. </font>[/QUOTE]That don't make since if you read some of Pauls letters to the Corinthians.
1Cor. 14:1 -
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Cor. 14:31 -
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Cor. 14:39 -
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Although this prophecy that Paul is speaking of seems to be for comfort and learning. Might be like me saying....... your head and not the tail...you'll be blessed going in the city and blessed going out.....and here is one that just came to mind....if you continue to poke a sleeping dog, don't be surprized if he wakes up and bite the hand that pokes him...... sounds like something my Granny would have said.
Music4Him </font>[/QUOTE]Music4Him,
When Paul wrote that, the Word of God wasn't completed yet.
-AZf </font>[/QUOTE]Exsactly and Paul was also saying how people should prophesy so evidently there are still prophets at this point but to edify and comfort.
All of the prophesies have been given but not all have been fulfilled.Originally posted by AZfiddler_Oct1996:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music4Him:
~AZf.......see the thread: "When is it complete".
Music4Him
-Alycia </font>[/QUOTE]Exsactly and so its not all perfect/complete/fulfilled.....ergo... complete prophecy (everything prophecied comming to pass), complete tongues (every tongue reconized as to preach the gospel to everyone *remember Jesus said that the end will not come until all heard the gospel), complete knowledge (no more BB debates as to what or who is right there will be no need because we'd have complete knowledge).
I re-read Acts 9:1-9
1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest
2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.
3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.
4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.
6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.
8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus.
9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
Only Paul saw Jesus, the men with him did not see Jesus but they did hear soemthing. Very interesting...
ChurchBoy
In all likelihood, considering his life, Paul was not with Christ from the baptism of John. So he did not fit the requirements Peter laid out for replacing Judas.
But Paul did not replace Judas, and we can see this in I Corinthians 15, because Paul says that Jesus appeared to the 12 after His resurrection, before appearing to Paul. If Judas were already dead, then who was the 12th apostle that Jesus appeared to if not Matthias? Acts tell us that Matthias was a witness of the resurrection.
Jesus told the 12 that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. But Galatians tells u that the Gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto Paul.
Paul was an apostle, but the conclusion we must draw is that he was not one of the 12. Also, Paul did not fit the requirements for being one of the 12 that Peter laid down in Acts 1, but Christ still sent him as an apostle.
But Paul did not replace Judas, and we can see this in I Corinthians 15, because Paul says that Jesus appeared to the 12 after His resurrection, before appearing to Paul. If Judas were already dead, then who was the 12th apostle that Jesus appeared to if not Matthias? Acts tell us that Matthias was a witness of the resurrection.
Jesus told the 12 that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. But Galatians tells u that the Gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto Paul.
Paul was an apostle, but the conclusion we must draw is that he was not one of the 12. Also, Paul did not fit the requirements for being one of the 12 that Peter laid down in Acts 1, but Christ still sent him as an apostle.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
-Alycia
We have no record of Paul being around for Jesus' Resurrection either...
Though I am sure he was aware of it...
Nor, as another has stated, was he among them from John's Baptism...
So, upon what criterion was Paul 'allowed' to be a 'True Apostle' that would absolutely restrict any modern day man from also being called to the ministry...
Note: I am *NOT* advocating that we have 'True Apostles' amongst us today... Merey postulating that there is no Scriptural Proof against their theoretical possibility...
(At least none that I am aware of...
I ain't aware of any either......
BTW, I spoke with someone about this topic of Paul being an Apostle and how the Apostles casted lots and choose Matthias as an Apostle after Judas. The logical question is how did Paul become an Apostle if there was only suppost to be 12? But in the conversation I had.......why did the Apostles cast lot to fill the position or should they have waited on Paul (was he suppost to have been the 12th replacement)?
prophecynut
New Member
I'll give a
for Link.
Paul was chosen by Christ as was the 12, apostles of the early church were chosen by the Holy Spirit.
Theologians and scholars are almost unanimous in claiming that there are no apostles or prophets in the present dispensation of grace. They conclude that the title of prophet ended with Jesus Christ and the title of apostle ended with the 12 apostles chosen by Christ. I disagree.
There is a distinction between the 12 original apostles and the apostles of the early church and the OT prophets and the early church prophets.
The 12 apostles had the distinction of being chosen by Christ as witnesses to Christ and his resurrection. They were with Jesus during his ministry and were empowered by the God's Spirit to heal the sick, cast out demons, receive prophecy etc.
The apostles of the early church were chosen by the Holy Spirit to be "sent out" to various regions for the purpose of spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Old Testament prophets received the Word of God directly from the Lord himself in the form of divine actions and revelations. The prophets spoke to their situation by means of warnings and encouragements concerning the future.
New Testament prophets do not receive divine revelations because the Word of God is complete. They do receive guidance from the Holy Spirit "to encourage and strengthen the brothers" and prepare "God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up" (Acts 15:32; Eph. 4:12). They can make predictions (Acts 11:27-28; 21:10-11), be given insights and knowledge of existing truths (Acts 13:12; 1 Cor. 14:29-31).
Present day apostles are not called as such but missionaries instead. Missionary is rooted in the Latin language and apostle in the Greek language; both have the same meaning which is "one sent out." If a person is led by the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel in uncharted regions then he would become an apostle to those folks.
Having apostles and prophets in the early church and not in the latter day church would create two churches with different characteristics thus dividing the church that God created as one. From the day of Pennecost to the day of the rapture, irrespective of what age one lives in, the church is of the same substance, same spirit, same dispensation, same body of Christ and the same ministries.
I am sure you will agree that the church is totally dependent on and would not exist without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the same source of the fruit of the Spirit that dwells in the members of the church. Please notice that "fruit" is singular which denotes that all of the attributes of the fruit listed are inclusive and thus establishes the completeness and totality of the fruit of the Spirit. You cannot omit one of the attributes and say it is not part of the fruit. This law inclusiveness concerning the fruit must also be applied to the ministries of the church as set forth in Eph. 4:11-12 and 1 Cor. 12:27-28. The church is singular as the fruit is and therefore all of the ministries must by included as part of the church.
Paul was chosen by Christ as was the 12, apostles of the early church were chosen by the Holy Spirit.
Theologians and scholars are almost unanimous in claiming that there are no apostles or prophets in the present dispensation of grace. They conclude that the title of prophet ended with Jesus Christ and the title of apostle ended with the 12 apostles chosen by Christ. I disagree.
There is a distinction between the 12 original apostles and the apostles of the early church and the OT prophets and the early church prophets.
The 12 apostles had the distinction of being chosen by Christ as witnesses to Christ and his resurrection. They were with Jesus during his ministry and were empowered by the God's Spirit to heal the sick, cast out demons, receive prophecy etc.
The apostles of the early church were chosen by the Holy Spirit to be "sent out" to various regions for the purpose of spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Old Testament prophets received the Word of God directly from the Lord himself in the form of divine actions and revelations. The prophets spoke to their situation by means of warnings and encouragements concerning the future.
New Testament prophets do not receive divine revelations because the Word of God is complete. They do receive guidance from the Holy Spirit "to encourage and strengthen the brothers" and prepare "God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up" (Acts 15:32; Eph. 4:12). They can make predictions (Acts 11:27-28; 21:10-11), be given insights and knowledge of existing truths (Acts 13:12; 1 Cor. 14:29-31).
Present day apostles are not called as such but missionaries instead. Missionary is rooted in the Latin language and apostle in the Greek language; both have the same meaning which is "one sent out." If a person is led by the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel in uncharted regions then he would become an apostle to those folks.
Having apostles and prophets in the early church and not in the latter day church would create two churches with different characteristics thus dividing the church that God created as one. From the day of Pennecost to the day of the rapture, irrespective of what age one lives in, the church is of the same substance, same spirit, same dispensation, same body of Christ and the same ministries.
I am sure you will agree that the church is totally dependent on and would not exist without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the same source of the fruit of the Spirit that dwells in the members of the church. Please notice that "fruit" is singular which denotes that all of the attributes of the fruit listed are inclusive and thus establishes the completeness and totality of the fruit of the Spirit. You cannot omit one of the attributes and say it is not part of the fruit. This law inclusiveness concerning the fruit must also be applied to the ministries of the church as set forth in Eph. 4:11-12 and 1 Cor. 12:27-28. The church is singular as the fruit is and therefore all of the ministries must by included as part of the church.