No greater love and limited atonement

[Steadfast Fred]

No need for a systematic theology handbook... we have the Word of God.

 

[Amy.G]

Yes, that is my point. Do you believe all people of Israel, without exception, were saved?But we are not talking about justification. We are talking about the atonement. Very different things.

No. I already said that not every Israelite was saved. But atonement was made for every one of them. It had to be. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.

This is the problem you, Winman, and others seem to have. You confuse the atonement, justification, regeneration, salvation, etc. They are not all the same thing.

:laugh: We don't have a problem. It's the false doctrine of Calvinism that has the problem.

A careful study of a good systematic theology textbook might help you understand the distinctions.

I am aware of the distinctions. I have already stated that atonement alone will not bring salvation. One must have faith in that atonement.

 

[Amy.G]

No need for a systematic theology handbook... we have the Word of God.

Amen to that.

 

[webdog]

Reading the posts of some, I never cease to be amazed at the folks who have such a man-centered God, who does our bidding and is bound to our whims and fancies. Stunning, just stunning. Open Theism may have died in name, but the remnants and its adherents are very present.

TCassidy, I've enjoyed your posts thoroughly. You know more than just Bible versions Always good to hear from you!

You know this is an underhanded blow, and is trolling...not a good combination for a moderator. You have broken a BB rule you are supposed to enforce.

 

[webdog]

That, of course, was not the question. Why do you duck and dodge to avoid an honest answer to the question? Do you know the mind of God? Yes or no.

Is Christ God? Yes or no. That is your answer.

No, your problem is with being honest. Nobody suggested the Canons of Dordt are superior to the bible. You made a false claim about what Calvinists believe and I posted the quote from the Canons that proved your statement was false. Since you were caught in a false statement, and seem to lack the honesty and integrity to admit your error, you revert to the lying insinuation that I have greater respect for the writings of men then the word of God. Shame on you for that lack of intellectual honesty.

What in the world are you talking about?

As a Christian you are commanded to "sin not." But you still sin. Your obedience is incomplete, and as you have not yet given your life for anyone or anything the probability of your future obedience is still far from sure.

Red Herring, we are not talking about sinning.

The husband is to give himself in life, not in death, for his wife.

More obfuscation. We are to give up our lives (die) for our wives if need be.

Yes, and it would seem of the two of us I am the one who actually understands it.

Quite debatable, as if you did this debate would not occur.

t is obvious from your silly statements that you either do not understand the Atonement or you are lying. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming your are simply ignorant.

I can't help but notice you still have not answered my question, "How can a person whose sins have been atoned for ever go to hell?"

Typical resort to the ad hominem. Can't say I'm shocked. Your answer is found in John 3:18.

I quoted from the Canons of Dordt. It is you who lied about the scope and value of the atonement. I pointed that out and you keep ducking and dodging but can't come up with an answer so you make the false claim of "strawman."

That's quite a long answer to say "nuh-uh". Your unfounded accusations border on being a personal attack.

I have not claimed perfect obedience in areas I have never been tested.

Neither have I. You might not want to be so quick on the "liar" accusations. People who live in glass houses...

Yes, so every Christian has exactly the same level of biblical knowledge as every other Christian? If so why did Paul so foolishly say, "Study to show yourself approved unto God?"

Ah, so "biblical knowledge" trumps being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. I guess I better start listening to Roman Catholic priests who hold doctorates.

Another proof that you have failed to understand. Because one leads to the other does not make them equal.

You didn't even understand what I was saying, yet you claim I don't understand. Nice.

Webdog,

There is much smugness, biting, and sniping in this post (which I have chosen not to deal with) that has been gloriously absent from your most recent postings. I would, however, like to address the above statement.

I find it ironic you point out my post, yet completely overlook TCassidy's post which you describe perfectly. Selective reading?

 

[webdog]

Would someone please, in very clear and simple terms explain the difference between "sufficient" and "efficacious". From what I have gathered to this point in my life, it sure seems like a dance.

Good luck in getting an honest answer. If I cooked enough hamburgers to "sufficiently" feed a certain group it would seem I made enough so each person would have one. Now someone may not want one, but it can never be said I didn't make that person one.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Systematic Theology does not reveal the distinctions, it provides distractions.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then explain this verse:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The phrase "all men" is used twice in this verse and they are the EXACT same words in the Greek.

Calvinists teach that Adam's sin nature and the condemnation for being a sinner passed onto every man. You would interpret the first "all men" to mean every single person who has ever lived except Jesus.

So, wouldn't the second "all men" teach that the free gift of justification came upon every single man who ever lived as well?

Dig out that commentary!

Easy pickings again winman......all men are physically born dead in adam
only the elect are born from above and IN Christ.
1cor 15:22 it was not on you tube, and did not have to dig out a commentary,just have to understand the verses correctly.
Glad you liked the you tube link,you identified with it.

 

[Iconoclast]

No. I already said that not every Israelite was saved. But atonement was made for every one of them. It had to be. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.


:laugh: We don't have a problem. It's the false doctrine of Calvinism that has the problem.




I am aware of the distinctions. I have already stated that atonement alone will not bring salvation. One must have faith in that atonement.

Faith is "the gift of God" .Everyone does not have saving faith,only the elect.
Salvation is always by,or through faith,never....because of faith.
If you understand this correctly you will solve the puzzle.

 

[rsr]

I am sure there is something of substance amid the name calling and ad hominems, but not enough to justify keeping this thread alive.