"No one knows about that day or hour...nor the Son" Mark 13:32

[Humble Disciple]

Mark 13:32
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The fact that Jesus doesn't know the day or hour of His return has nothing to say about His perfection as a divine being. Since the future doesn't exist yet, it is, by definition, unknowable.

Rabbi Yeshayahu Horowitz explained the apparent paradox of his position by citing the old question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot pick it up?" He said that we cannot accept free choice as a creation of God's, and simultaneously question its logical compatibility with omnipotence.
Open Theism in Medieval Judaism

One could say that Jesus voluntarily emptied Himself of foreknowledge by taking on human flesh, but wouldn't He at least remember the date of His return if that were the case?

Here is just one example from scripture, among many, of God reacting to human choices:

Genesis 22:12
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” He said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

The day and the hour of Christ's return are not predetermined, but instead will come to pass at the appropriate season.

Acts 1:7
He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.

The due season will come once the Gospel has been preached to all peoples, giving them a chance of repentance before the Second Coming, but the exact date is yet to be determined.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

2 Peter 3
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night...

When Jesus says, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father,” (Mark 13:32), he is saying that determining the date is the Father’s responsibility, not that he has already set the date.

To borrow an analogy from Greg Boyd, the Father knows the hour of Christ’s return in the same way an earthly father knows when his daughter is old enough to date. This doesn’t mean he has a date fixed in his mind; only that he’ll know when the right time has come.

In the same way a daughter can hasten that day by demonstrating maturity, so can the church also, according to 2 Peter 3, hasten the Lord’s return by obediently spreading the gospel.[6]

Many also point to messianic prophecies as a demonstration of God’s exhaustive foreknowledge of future events. Again, according to open theology, God in his omnipotence can bring about whatever he wishes. If he desired to fulfill these messianic prophecies in Christ, he could have, with or without exhaustive foreknowledge of future events.
Prophecy and Its Place Within Open Theism | Garrett Ham

Second, the crowing of the cock reveals no special foreknowledge on Jesus’ part but was simply a way of referring to the break of dawn (when cocks always crow). Perhaps some providential intervention was necessary to have the cock crow immediately after Peter’s third betrayal in order to drive home the point of Jesus’ prophecy (Matt. 26:74–75), but that is certainly an easy feat for the sovereign Lord of history.
How do you respond to Matthew 26:36? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

Imagine how many embarrassments in Christian history would have been prevented if Christ's followers had, instead of making false predictions of Christ's return, recognized that no one knows the day nor the hour, not even the Son.

 

[Humble Disciple]

As in Revelation 13:8, the clause “from the foundation” (apo kataboleis) need not mean “from before the foundation” but simply “from the foundation” (= since the foundation). It’s not that names either were or were not written in the “book of life” before they were ever born. Rather, throughout history, in response to the choices people made, God either wrote or omitted their names from the “book of life.” The fact that names may be blotted out even after they’ve been included (Exod. 32:33; Rev. 3:5, cf. Rev. 22:18) further suggests this “book of life” is not eternally written in stone.
Revelation 17:8 refers to people whose names haven’t been written in “the book of life from the creation of the world.” Doesn’t this conflict with open theism? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

 

[Humble Disciple]

He limited Himself to not knowing that while here as a human, but does know the exact moment as soon as ascended, as now bask to the fulness of his prior glory!

One could say that Jesus voluntarily emptied Himself of foreknowledge by taking on human flesh, but wouldn't He at least remember the date of His return if that were the case?

Since the future doesn't exist yet, it is, by definition, unknowable. This says nothing about Jesus' perfection as a divine being.

Rabbi Yeshayahu Horowitz explained the apparent paradox of his position by citing the old question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot pick it up?" He said that we cannot accept free choice as a creation of God's, and simultaneously question its logical compatibility with omnipotence.
Open Theism in Medieval Judaism

Many also point to messianic prophecies as a demonstration of God’s exhaustive foreknowledge of future events. Again, according to open theology, God in his omnipotence can bring about whatever he wishes. If he desired to fulfill these messianic prophecies in Christ, he could have, with or without exhaustive foreknowledge of future events.
Prophecy and Its Place Within Open Theism | Garrett Ham

Here is just one example from scripture, among many, of God reacting to human choices:

Genesis 22:12
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” He said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Finney heresy

Bearing False Witness is a Sin, A Warning of God's Judgment

Jesus promised that, if you truly followed Him, people would speak evil of you:

Matthew 5:11
Blessed are you when they shall insult you and shall persecute you, and lying shall say all kinds of evil against you on account of Me.

It shouldn't be surprising, then, that Calvinists continue to bear false witness regarding Finney's life and teachings, for converting more souls to lifelong, repentant believers than they do, but it's also a violation of God's command to not bear false witness:
Bearing False Witness is a Sin, A Warning of God's Judgment

Every time Calvinists smear Charles Finney, a man who gave up the pursuit of practicing law after having a profound experience of the Holy Spirit, who wouldn't even visit a town for revival until after it had been made ready with extensive prayer, they are setting themselves up for God's judgment.

Matthew 12:31-32
I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

It's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to attribute the work of God to the work of Satan, just as the Pharisees did when Jesus cast out demons.
Who is the real Charles Finney?

Whether one likes it or not, Finney had a profound influence on Baptists in the United States.

are you even a Baptist?

Do you honestly know anything about what the Anabaptists, the historical forerunners of the Baptist faith, actually believed?

Do you know who Gregory Boyd is? This is his case for believer's baptism:

The Case For Believer's Baptism - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

Greg Boyd is far from being a heretic. He is, along with N. T. Wright, one of the best conservative scholars on the historical Jesus today.

He is also a notable figure in New Testament scholarship and the Quest for the Historical Jesus.[34] He is critical of liberal scholarship as typified by the Jesus Seminar as well as the individual work of scholars like John Dominic Crossan and Burton Mack. He has participated in numerous public debates, most notably with friend Robert M. Price and Dan Barker on the historicity of the New Testament and related matters.[35] His first book in this area was Cynic Sage or Son of God? (1995). More recently, his book (co-authored with Paul Rhodes Eddy), The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition (2007) won the 2008 Christianity Today Book of the Year Award (Biblical Studies category).[36]
Greg Boyd (theologian) - Wikipedia

I've been a fan of Greg Boyd ever since he first published Myth of a Chrstian Nation:

The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power is Destroying the Church

This is the statement of faith from Greg Boyd's church, which seems like a pretty standard Baptist statement of faith:
Beliefs

We were established in 1992 in cooperation with Converge Worldwide, but over the years we discovered and established more significant connections with Anabaptist groups. In late 2019 we officially became non-denominational, but value our relationships with various churches and networks.

If you want a more in-depth sense of our theology, check out our Beliefs page, or listen to some sermons. For those interested in our theological orientation, we recommend you start with our Tapestry and Kindred sermon series.
FAQ

Whether one is a Molinist, open theist, Calvinist, Arminian, etc. has nothing to do, whatsoever, with the essentials of Christian salvation.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

 

[Yeshua1]

Since the future doesn't exist yet, it is, by definition, unknowable. This says nothing about Jesus' perfection as a divine being.




Here is just one example from scripture, among many, of God reacting to human choices:

Genesis 22:12
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” He said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”



Bearing False Witness is a Sin, A Warning of God's Judgment



Whether one likes it or not, Finney had a profound influence on Baptists in the United States.



Do you honestly know anything about what the Anabaptists, the historical forerunners of the Baptist faith, actually believed?

Do you know who Gregory Boyd is? This is his case for believer's baptism:

The Case For Believer's Baptism - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

Greg Boyd is far from being a heretic. He is, along with N. T. Wright, one of the best conservative scholars on the historical Jesus today.



I've been a fan of Greg Boyd ever since he first published Myth of a Chrstian Nation:

The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power is Destroying the Church

This is the statement of faith from Greg Boyd's church, which seems like a pretty standard Baptist statement of faith:
Beliefs



Whether one is a Molinist, open theist, Calvinist, Arminian, etc. has nothing to do, whatsoever, with the essentials of Christian salvation.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

heresy to deny Pauline Justification, as is Open theism!

The future as already been set and fixed by God see Revelation!

 

[Humble Disciple]

heresy to deny Pauline Justification, as is Open theism!

Here is the statement of faith from Greg Boyd's church, please show us where it denies the Pauline doctrine of justification:
Beliefs

The future as already been set and fixed by God see Revelation!

Please cite the chapter and verse which proves this to be the case.

As in Revelation 13:8, the clause “from the foundation” (apo kataboleis) need not mean “from before the foundation” but simply “from the foundation” (= since the foundation). It’s not that names either were or were not written in the “book of life” before they were ever born. Rather, throughout history, in response to the choices people made, God either wrote or omitted their names from the “book of life.” The fact that names may be blotted out even after they’ve been included (Exod. 32:33; Rev. 3:5, cf. Rev. 22:18) further suggests this “book of life” is not eternally written in stone.
Revelation 17:8 refers to people whose names haven’t been written in “the book of life from the creation of the world.” Doesn’t this conflict with open theism? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

 

[Yeshua1]

View attachment 5018



Here is the statement of faith from Greg Boyd's church, please show us where it denies the Pauline doctrine of justification:
Beliefs



Please cite the chapter and verse which proves this to be the case.

Nt Wright denies Pauline Justification, while Boyd advocates Open theism heresy!

 

[37818]

Jesus explained, Acts of the Apostles 1:7, ". . . It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. . . ." Limiting His omniscience in some way and fully being God is nothing new to Him, John 1:18 KJV, Genesis 22:12. He is a distinct Person from His Father

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus explained, Acts of the Apostles 1:7, ". . . It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. . . ." Limiting His omniscience in some way and fully being God is nothing new to Him, John 1:18 KJV, Genesis 22:12. He is a distinct Person from His Father

Jesus limited Himself to being fully human, while still being fully God, and He now fully knows all things once again in His risen state!

 

[Humble Disciple]

Jesus explained, Acts of the Apostles 1:7, ". . . It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. . . ."

The due season will come once the Gospel has been preached to all peoples, giving them a chance of repentance before the Second Coming, but the exact date is yet to be determined.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

2 Peter 3
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night...

Limiting His omniscience in some way and fully being God is nothing new to Him, John 1:18 KJV, Genesis 22:12. He is a distinct Person from His Father

The fact that Jesus doesn't know the day or hour of His return has nothing to say about His perfection as a divine being. Since the future doesn't exist yet, it is, by definition, unknowable.

Rabbi Yeshayahu Horowitz explained the apparent paradox of his position by citing the old question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot pick it up?" He said that we cannot accept free choice as a creation of God's, and simultaneously question its logical compatibility with omnipotence.
Open Theism in Medieval Judaism

One could say that Jesus voluntarily emptied Himself of foreknowledge by taking on human flesh, but wouldn't He at least remember the date of His return if that were the case?

When Jesus says, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father,” (Mark 13:32), he is saying that determining the date is the Father’s responsibility, not that he has already set the date.

To borrow an analogy from Greg Boyd, the Father knows the hour of Christ’s return in the same way an earthly father knows when his daughter is old enough to date. This doesn’t mean he has a date fixed in his mind; only that he’ll know when the right time has come.

In the same way a daughter can hasten that day by demonstrating maturity, so can the church also, according to 2 Peter 3, hasten the Lord’s return by obediently spreading the gospel.[6]

Many also point to messianic prophecies as a demonstration of God’s exhaustive foreknowledge of future events. Again, according to open theology, God in his omnipotence can bring about whatever he wishes. If he desired to fulfill these messianic prophecies in Christ, he could have, with or without exhaustive foreknowledge of future events.
Prophecy and Its Place Within Open Theism | Garrett Ham

Whether one accepts or rejects open theism has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories

 

[37818]

Whether one accepts or rejects open theism has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation.

I personally reject "open theism." Rather I hold the view that the acts of the Son being both a distinct Person and God are what what "open theists" missinterpret.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I personally reject "open theism." Rather I hold the view that the acts of the Son being both a distinct Person and God are what what "open theists" missinterpret.

If the future is, by definition, unknowable, since it doesn't yet even exist, this says nothing about God's perfection as a divine being.

"Gersonides, bothered by the old question of how God's foreknowledge is compatible with human freedom, holds that what God knows beforehand is all the choices open to each individual. God does not know, however, which choice the individual, in his freedom, will make."[5]
Rabbi Yeshayahu Horowitz explained the apparent paradox of his position by citing the old question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot pick it up?" He said that we cannot accept free choice as a creation of God's, and simultaneously question its logical compatibility with omnipotence.
Open Theism in Medieval Judaism

One could say that Jesus voluntarily emptied Himself of foreknowledge by taking on human flesh, but wouldn't He at least remember the date of His return if that were the case?

We can be good Bereans, using our God-given reason to search the scriptures ourselves and make our own conclusions.

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 43:26
Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together;
State your cause, that you may be proved right.

Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

1 Corinthians 8
2 Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. 3 But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

Ecclesiastes 7
18 It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories

 

[37818]

If the future is, by definition, unknowable, since it doesn't yet even exist, this says nothing about God's perfection as a divine being.

God in His infinite being is absolutely omniscient. Now the Son is different in He is both another distinct Person from God and the very same God too. See Hebrews 1:3 and John 1:1-3. Trinitarians have trouble when it is really simple. Maybe not for all of us, but is for God.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Open theism is fully compatible with the corporate view of election, that God elected the church as a whole, rather than specific individuals, to salvation.

The Corporate View of Election

If God Changes His Mind, So Can I

I have no association with Leighton Flowers, and he is not an open theist.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As the OP is now perma-banned, this thread is now closed.