Not under Law --Under Grace!

[Claudia_T]

Hi Everyone,

I hear a lot on this Board about being "Under Grace" and not "Under Law" and so those of you who believe the typical way about that ... meaning that you think that sin (transgression of the law) is not something to worry about now since you are "Under Grace"... could you please explain this to me?


Romans 6:
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Good Luck?

Claudia

 

[D28guy]

grace

Hi Claudia,

The way I see the "under grace, not law" issue is pretty much the standard view among those who see things this way.

Our rightstanding with God is now...after the cross...determined by our identification with Christ(under grace), and not our behavior(under law)

Christ lived sinless, and His perfection has been imputed permanently to us...freeing us from ever again having to wonder if we are being good enough to be accepted by Him.

And yes, I believe that this means that when we sin we are in no danger of losing our salvation. We shouldnt sin, and we will certainly experience Gods discipline and chastisement. But it will never diminish our rightstanding with God since Christs sinlessness is credited to us.

And our sinning with become less and less as we grow in grace and Christlikeness.

THANK GOD we have been freed from the Law!

Hope this helps!

God bless,

Mike

 

[TaliOrlando]

Hi Everyone,

I hear a lot on this Board about being "Under Grace" and not "Under Law" and so those of you who believe the typical way about that ... meaning that you think that sin (transgression of the law) is not something to worry about now since you are "Under Grace"... could you please explain this to me?


Romans 6:
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Good Luck?

Claudia

This is a good subject and one that I also have questions about. I mean.. I think Yes God paid the price for our sins but we still must ask and repent for them right? I dont think that if a person gives him life to Christ and then forgets about Christ his whole like and never repents. I think that person is just fooling him self.

Galatians 5
Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other

Galatians 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Revelation 3

15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Now in Revelation he is talking to a church right? A Church who has already accepted him as their Saviour yet he tells them that those who he loves he rebukes and diciplines and for them to be earnest and repent.

I dont think you can be saved in the morning and be lost in the afternoon thats now what I am saying. I just think a Christian should just be humble and in prayer just ask for to forgive their daily sins. Thats all... I dont think that a Christian who accepts Christ can just live his life in sin and not repent and be saved. However I am work in progress and would like your help on this.... Thanks Tali

 

[Marcia]

Claudia you have presented a straw man argument. I don't think anyone here has said that sin is not something to worry about.

In Romans, it says that if God gives grace, should we therefore sin? Paul says, absolutely not! The Bible clearly refutes there and other places any idea that grace means sin is okay.

Yes, we are under grace because God has removed his wrath from believers and the penalty for breaking the law was put on Christ. Colossians says this:

having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Col 2.14

I don't know of any believer who thinks sin doesn't matter.

 

[Claudia_T]

Claudia you have presented a straw man argument. I don't think anyone here has said that sin is not something to worry about.

In Romans, it says that if God gives grace, should we therefore sin? Paul says, absolutely not! The Bible clearly refutes there and other places any idea that grace means sin is okay.

Yes, we are under grace because God has removed his wrath from believers and the penalty for breaking the law was put on Christ. Colossians says this:




I don't know of any believer who thinks sin doesn't matter.

well can you explain what the Bible verses I put there really mean then?

 

[Marcia]

well can you explain what the Bible verses I put there really mean then?

In fact, my pastor just preached on this section last Sunday. He's going through Romans - very slowly. Started in October and will last until July - good expository preaching!

The passage urges us to not fall into old sin patterns. It's like someone who is used to a pattern will keep falling into it even though there's been a change. If you had a wall in between the kitchen and den, let's say, you would be used to walking around the wall. Then you knock out the wall and can walk right into the den. But for awhile, you start to walk to the den as though the wall was still there.

Another illustration: A slave is set free from his master. He is sailing away on a boat but the old master is calling to him. The slave is so used to the old master's voice that he starts to obey that voice, and still wants to listen to that voice; but he has to get used to being on the ship sailing away.

Unbelievers are slaves to sin. They do not have the power to resist it. Believers are slaves to God and righteousness and have the power to resist sin, but must do that in the power of the HS. We can't do that in the flesh.

But even though believers have the power to resist sin, we still have patterns from our old sin nature; we have temptations; we have desires we give in to, even when we know it's wrong. This passage reminds us that we should not give in to sin and that we live a new life.

A passage like this should never be read out of context. The whole of Romans 6 should be read, and then Romans 5, and ideally, the whole book of Romans.

The books of the Bible were not written in chapters or verses, so actually the whole book of Romans should be read in 1 or 2 sittings to see what is being said. Romans is one book, not a bunch of unrelated passages.

Positionally, through faith, we are seen as righteous because of Christ's atonement, but actually, we are still sinners, but we are forgiven. But we are not just forgiven, we are being transformed (sanctified) by the HS. But this is a process.

 

[Brother Bob]

Positionally, through faith, we are seen as righteous because of Christ's atonement, but actually, we are still sinners, but we are forgiven. But we are not just forgiven, we are being transformed (sanctified) by the HS. But this is a process.

You say we are still sinners. Are we sinners because of "transgression of the Law"?

Also, is there anyone who does not accept the prophets of OT?

 

[Claudia_T]

I was specifically wanting to know what people think this means when it says here

14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

It talks all about not sloowing sin to be your master anymore and about being "dead" as far as sin goes. Do not yield yourself any longer to sin.

Okay but WHY would it then say sin shall not have dominion over you

for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

after all, sin is defined as "transgression of the law" and so why would being DEAD to sin and not allowing it to be over you... make you be not under the law but instead under GRACE?


Dont overestimate the importance of this because then it says further down:

22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[Marcia]

I was specifically wanting to know what people think this means when it says here

14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

It talks all about not sloowing sin to be your master anymore and about being "dead" as far as sin goes. Do not yield yourself any longer to sin.

Okay but WHY would it then say sin shall not have dominion over you

for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

after all, sin is defined as "transgression of the law" and so why would being DEAD to sin and not allowing it to be over you... make you be not under the law but instead under GRACE?


Dont overestimate the importance of this because then it says further down:

22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Faith in Christ frees us from the dominion (power) of sin because we have the ability to resist it.

Being dead to sin means that we are free from that dominion, and that we are free of the penalty of sin under the law, which is death, (see preceeding verses about Jesus conquering death through his resurrection and how we are raised with him to new life).

Verses 8-11 say:

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

It's all about being free from the power of sin, which is to dead to sin (and the sin nature) and its power and penalty (verse 23 says that the wages of sin are death). It does not mean we are actually sinless.

The Bible tells us that the law was a "tutor" to lead us to Christ. The law shows we are sinners and need redemption. That redemption is in Christ. The Bible also says that the law brings death, because there is no redemption in the law (it says that too).

A good study of Romans will elucidate these topics.


</SPAN>

 

[Marcia]

You say we are still sinners. Are we sinners because of "transgression of the Law"?

We sin because we are sinners (have a sin nature). We are born sinners.

 

[Brother Bob]

We sin because we are sinners (have a sin nature). We are born sinners.

Marcia;
Does that mean when we sin we transgress the Law? What is sin?

 

[Marcia]

Marcia;
Does that mean when we sin we transgress the Law? What is sin?

Do you really not know what sin is?

When we disobey God, we sin. Adam and Eve did not have the Law. Adam had one commandment from God - not to eat of a certain tree. He did and sin entered the world.

The law, which is a reflection of God's righteousness, is to show our sin because we cannot live up to it/obey it. We are all born with a sin nature and will sin.

Any deviation from the perfect righteousness of God's character is sin.

 

[Brother Bob]

My Bible teaches me that transgression of the Law is sin. Again, I ask you when you sin do you transgress the Law, or when you become a Christian can you kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, worship cows etc.?
I know what sin is, I just want to know if you think transgressing the Law is sin? Why is everyone so afraid of saying if you break the Commandments you sin when that is what the Bible teaches?

1John was not afraid to say it.

1Jo 3:4¶Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Claudia_T]

1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

that is the Bible definition of sin.

 

[Marcia]

My Bible teaches me that transgression of the Law is sin. Again, I ask you when you sin do you transgress the Law, or when you become a Christian can you kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, worship cows etc.?
I know what sin is, I just want to know if you think transgressing the Law is sin? Why is everyone so afraid of saying if you break the Commandments you sin when that is what the Bible teaches?

1John was not afraid to say it.

1Jo 3:4¶Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I'm not afraid to say it. Yes. I just don't see what you are getting at. You also have to think about where the law came from and what it was for. The Bible tells us that it had a purpose: to show that we deviate from God's righteousness (i.e., sin) and to lead us to Christ.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Bob,

Yes, when one sins, they break the Law.

I was just reminded of something.

When Adam and Eve were told they would eat of the tree, they would surely die.

Wonder why people do not believe they abide in death as Christ said in the Word when they partake of sin by not keeping the Commandments?

 

[Brother Bob]

I know Marcia;
But I wonder when do you think that was. Was it over 2000 years ago or was it in your life time is what I am getting at.

I don't know SFIC. I think God put those Laws in my heart and in my mind, but thats just me.

 

[Marcia]

I know Marcia;
But I wonder when do you think that was. Was it over 2000 years ago or was it in your life time is what I am getting at.

When do I think what was?

 

[Brother Bob]

When do I think what was?

The Bible tells us that it had a purpose: to show that we deviate from God's righteousness (i.e., sin) and to lead us to Christ.

When did this take place in your life?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

These verses were not just put in the Bible to take up space.