Featured Now I Understand! Do You?

DHK has authority here to close threads. In the Cal vs Arm, not-so-much...

 

Christ died for, laid 3 days and nights in the ground for, was raised and ascended to the Father for, and will come again for the church, His bride...

 

You guys have no shame.

 

What did I say that was so erroneous?


Though I'm amil, I tend to stay outta these eschatology debates. I mean I don't participate in them like other topics...

 

RL Bosley has a thread - Convince me of Amillennialism - which is at 25 posts and still open

He's made it known that he is currently (tentatively) Historic Premillennial

In one post, Willis answered - "Open your bible and read"
to which Bosley answered with a meme "You don't say"

I think the intent of Bosley's thread is - Defend your position from scripture, give your best shot at convincing me


In all fairness, Old Regular has merely offered the same to the PreMil Dispensationalist - Defend your position from scripture, give your best shot at convincing me.


I'll say truthfully that I was once PreMil Dispensational, and am now pretty firmly planted in Historic PreMillennialism. I'm not interested in becoming Amillennial, and have no side to choose here. And I don't believe OR is looking to become convinced, either.

But I am in agreement with OR that the PreMil PreTrib rapture position is not defensible from scripture. But who knows, right? Let's have a purely scriptural defense of the PreTrib rapture

Anyone?

 

I've considered John 5, and standing alone it does seem to indicate a single resurrection.

However, I also consider 1Cor 15:20-28.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all


Couple of points...

Verses 23-24 say those who are Christ's at His coming, then the *end* which can also be rendered "then the rest"

Christ will reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet, then He will hand the Kingdom back to the Father.

 

Jesus often spoke metaphorically. e.g. destroy this temple and I will build it up in 3 days.

There will indeed be a resurrection of the body, but consider John 5:24 along with 25. Who are "the dead" - those dead (walking around) to whom the gospel is preached and then received. They need not wait until the resurrection of the body.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This "resurrection" has been going on now for nearly 2000 years, every time the gospel is preached and believed.

HankD

 

I really wish I was at my keyboard so I can comment in depth here. I am in the Philippines with only my Nook. But one comment for now: Who were the enemies Paul is referring to? Check his other "enemy" verses.

 

Comments please.

ἕκαστος δὲ ἐν τῷ ἰδίῳ τάγματι KJV: But each man in his own order.

With Christ being the first, man?

All, from the previous verse is also an interesting word.

 

Would I be correct to assume that the resurrection spoken of is something that is inherited?

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. Hebrews 1:1,2 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:17

Exactly when do you believe Jesus the Christ inherited the above resurrection?

 

OK, but that only proves that the concept of the resurrection of the body is debatable on a human level.

The ongoing orthodox view has always acknowledged that there will be a bodily resurrection of humanity as well as a spiritual.

Jesus left in His resurrected material body, the scripture declares that this same Jesus will return in like manner.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



HankD

 

Before you declare what is ongoing orthodoxy, can you tell us what you mean by a spiritual resurrection? I'm not denying it, but I would only say that this is part and parcel to regeneration. Thus the New Covenant has been enacted and believers have entered an initial eschatological stage of resurrection, the "already" if you will. We have already been resurrected or given life spiritually. We we await the day of consummation where resurrection will be complete and our bodies will be resurrected. Are we in some agreement here?

 

Is that like saying eternal life which I believe to be inherited, biblically speaking, is inherited in two manners, first spiritually and then bodily?

Did Jesus born of Mary experience both of these resurrections in inheriting what he is the heir thereof.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:1,2

Is God who appointed Son as heir in those verses to be understood as the Father of the Son or in some other manner? Is eternal life inclusive in the all things of which the above Son is heir of?

What about glory? Did Jesus the Son inherit glory? If Yes, when did he inherit glory?

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom 8:17 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21

We who have had the Holy Spirit abundantly poured upon us, have we inherited eternal life or we still just, heirs of the hope of eternal life?

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7

Have we been spiritually resurrected?

Who has inherited and who are still, just heirs?