Numbers 20:10........

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I do not believe Moses was taking credit for the miracle himself as BobRyan inferred.

Moses knew God is the one who does the miracles, so he was referring to God's hand in the miracle. His sin was striking the rock. And as Pastor Bob has pointed out, and others, it was not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

GE:

Colins: 'Blaspheme', to show contempt or disrespect for ... to utter profanities, curses or impious expressions

Did Moses show respect for God when he didn't as he was told by God, speak to the rock, but beat it instead? He blasphemed. How did God speak to Moses? Through the Holy Spirirt? Then Moses blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. And it was forgiven him in the end through Jesus Christ.

There is NO 'unpardonable sin'. It's a myth of the authoritarians.

The translation someone used on this thread, uses 'speak a word against' for 'blaspheme'.
Who, I dare him, is going to say he has never spoken a word against Jesus Christ, or against the Father, or, against the Holy Spirit? Who? For there is no sinner who does not blaspheme, especially against the Holy Spirit, since God through the Holy Spirit, speaks to the heart of man.
What word spoken against the Son, THEREFORE, will not be a word spoken against the Holy Spirit, since it is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Jesus?

I say, we still have to think about Jesus' utterance here. Ready-made answers - invariably from those high up - don't satisfy.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Since Jesus showed that all blasphemy shall be forgiven unto man but the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, i.e., attributing to the devil the works of the Lord,

and since Jesus said whatsoever is spoken against the Son of man (speaking of Himself) shall be forgiven, but to speak against the Holy Ghost one will not find forgiveness for....

I will believe Jesus rather than GE.

 

[BobRyan]

Moses' sin in this incident was failing to depend on God. He thought that merely speaking to the rock, as God had commanded, was not enough. He tried to provide water according to his own works. It certainly can speak of man's feeble attempt to accomplish the things of God in the energy of the flesh.

There is no blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in this incident.

Well said sir.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Apparently it is not clear enough to you, Bob.

They did not give honor to the Lord when they struck the rock. They were to speak to it, not strike it.

God did not tell them to say anything except to speak to the rock. He did not tell them to say 'Thus saith the Lord of Hosts...'. He just said, 'Speak To The Rock.' Nothing more, nothing less.

Their dishonor was not in their words, but in their action... striking the rock.

Did I ever say that striking the rock was ok? I am simply pointing out that they ALSO took credit to themselves saying "must WE bring water from this rock" AS IF Moses and Aaron had the power to do it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

They did not take the credit Bob. Read the passage with spiritual glasses instead of the natural eyes.

 

[Eliyahu]

For the comprehensive understanding of this passage, one should remember that God once commanded Moses to smite the Rock!

Exodus 17:

. 6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.


Why wasn't it allowed in Numbers 20:10-?

This is a real question to be solved!

 

[BobRyan]

He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?"
11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites,

...

The point seems clear enough. The words spoken AND the striking of the rock are both present. I for one do not turn a blind eye to either detail. Having said that - I don't claim that the intent was blasphemy.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Rock had already been struck as according to God's plan in Exodus 17. It could not be struck again.

The New Testament declares that Christ was that Rock. Christ was crucified once and for all. He cannot be crucified again.

Moses was disobedient in striking the Rock in Numbers 20. He was only to speak to it.

Today, we are to speak to the Rock. Call on Him while He is nigh... Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved... Pray without ceasing. There are many more references to speaking to that Rock in the New Testament. It should be an ongoing process in the Believer's life.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not object - differ - complain - reject the Bible truth that Moses was instructed to speak to the rock as a type of Christ. I simply note that his words make it appear that he and Aaron are the providers - when in fact they are not.

It is very easy to see Moses' frustration both in his words and actions. His words and actions are in concert with each other - but his intent is never to complain about God or to blaspheme God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Since Jesus showed that all blasphemy shall be forgiven unto man but the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, i.e., attributing to the devil the works of the Lord,

and since Jesus said whatsoever is spoken against the Son of man (speaking of Himself) shall be forgiven, but to speak against the Holy Ghost one will not find forgiveness for....

I will believe Jesus rather than GE.

ge:

So you alleage you have never spoken one word against the Holy Spirit, or, against the Son for that matter, the Son being the only the Holy Spirirt testifies to - "not of Himself", the Word saying.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Holy Ghost by its promptings speaks to the heart and "convinces of sin". Have you never sinned against these very promptings of the Holy Spirit -- which is really to sin against the Holy Spirit Himself?

In fact, one's refusal to admit, confess and pray for forgiveness for this very sin against the Holy Spirit of God acting upon the heart, is what is the unforgiveable sin. This is a paradox, exactly as Jesus left us with it in John 12:32.

I prefer it that way, to seeing in pure black and white blocks here.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Verse 34, "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Read also verse 33 -- these texts have the answer to the problem posed by Jesus in the foregoing verses.

The whole context of Matthew 12 deals with unbelief in Jesus. So Jesus tells the unbelievers: You refuse to believe in ME, yet you boast you posess the Holy Spirit while you lie, blaspheme and sin unforgiveably against HIM, because you refuse to believe and accept ME the only antidote for your sins! So how ever can you expect to have your words of sinning against the Holy Spirit forgiven? Jesus defended His own Messiahship.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If I came to faith in Jesus Christ, my blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the very first and essentially the only sin God through Christ forgives me.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

ge:

So you alleage you have never spoken one word against the Holy Spirit, or, against the Son for that matter, the Son being the only the Holy Spirirt testifies to - "not of Himself", the Word saying.

To my recollection... no. I have never spoken a word against the Lord Jesus Christ, nor against the Holy Spirit.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Holy Ghost by its promptings speaks to the heart and "convinces of sin". Have you never sinned against these very promptings of the Holy Spirit -- which is really to sin against the Holy Spirit Himself?

In fact, one's refusal to admit, confess and pray for forgiveness for this very sin against the Holy Spirit of God acting upon the heart, is what is the unforgiveable sin. This is a paradox, exactly as Jesus left us with it in John 12:32.

I prefer it that way, to seeing in pure black and white blocks here.

When the Spirit reveals to me what is sin in my life, I repent, I turn from that sin and seek the Lord's forgiveness. I do not continue in that which has been revealed by the Holy Spirit to be sin in my life

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To my recollection... no. I have never spoken a word against the Lord Jesus Christ, nor against the Holy Spirit.

God saved the ungodly; He saved us while we were sinners; haters of God. Then Paul lists the greatest of sins, and states, So were you all at first. You never sinned against the Son -- and hence, never against the Holy Spirit? Will you answer again?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

When the Spirit reveals to me what is sin in my life, I repent, I turn from that sin and seek the Lord's forgiveness. I do not continue in that which has been revealed by the Holy Spirit to be sin in my life

GE:

You never committed the same sin more than once? What supernatural nature you must have that is not altogether polluted?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

GE.

I am sorry you do not believe me. When I got saved, the Lord convicted me of drinking. I have not drank a drop since.

When I got saved, I used to curse a lot. I have not uttered a single curse word since my conversion.

I smoked marijuana and snorted cocaine before my Damascus Road experience. I no longer do that any more.

I have no desire to return to those sins that Christ delivered me from. Why? Because He removed that desire and cast it far away. I cannot reach them. I do not want to reach them.

Do I still sin? I would be lying if I said I did not. But when I do and the Spirit speaks to my heart that I have sinned, I do not any longer.

By the way, I used to steal before my conversion too.

No, I am not perfect, but I am not continuing in the sins that Christ has removed either. I cannot.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

If you are convicted of sin, you do not continue in sin.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE.

I am sorry you do not believe me. When I got saved, the Lord convicted me of drinking. I have not drank a drop since.

When I got saved, I used to curse a lot. I have not uttered a single curse word since my conversion.

I smoked marijuana and snorted cocaine before my Damascus Road experience. I no longer do that any more.

I have no desire to return to those sins that Christ delivered me from. Why? Because He removed that desire and cast it far away. I cannot reach them. I do not want to reach them.

Do I still sin? I would be lying if I said I did not. But when I do and the Spirit speaks to my heart that I have sinned, I do not any longer.

By the way, I used to steal before my conversion too.

No, I am not perfect, but I am not continuing in the sins that Christ has removed either. I cannot.

GE:

And I am sorry that I did not know. You presented your case as were it some impersonal stance under debate.

God be praised that you stand firm in the freedom Christ has made you free with.

Nevertheless, as you admit yourself, that does not mean you are sinless and therefore do not constantly stand in need of God's mercies and forgiveness. And it also does not mean that your or our 'lesser sins' justifiy us in the sight of God. Our greatest sin usually is the one we best hide - our lack of Godly love. We often hide the fiercest hate with a smile.

God who knows the heart, also is our Judge -- This is grace: that He first loved us while we were haters of Him.

Before His Love we realise the deeper, our sinful shortcomings; before His Faithfulness the truer grows our unfaithfulness. The deeper we rest in grace the starker doom before us our sins.