NY Times Article: "The Evangelical Crackup"

[Timsings]

I found this article very interesting, but I have to warn you that it is very long (15 pages printed): "The Evangelical Crackup".

Tim Reynolds

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

From the article:
In the 1980s, when theological conservatives pushed the moderates out of the Southern Baptist Convention, ...

Boy, libs sure hate to be called libs these days. Of course this is wrong in a couple of ways. No one was pushed out of the convention. We can all be sure the libs are still there. And call them moderates or liberals they are all still liberal what ever you call them.

As far as the rest of the article is concerned it is more propaganda.

 

[preachinjesus]

Evangelicalism is in disray, he's right. We've done it your to ourselves.

And it's pretty indicting when those outside of evangelicalism can notice that we've sold our spiritual birthright for a little cup of bitter soup.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

It's not in disaray. and the liberal secular press has had a history of misreporting the activities with the church to fit their scewed world view. Such was their behavior from 79 thru the 90's in regards to the conservative resurgence in the convention. And the "Evangelical Liberals" most certainly use it to their advantage. As they did then.

And yet they lost,:thumbs:

And lets just be honest. this was not about evangelicalism. It is a hit piece on conservatism. However the views of the lost who have no intentions of submitting to God are not accurate nor are they relevant to the church. The great accuser is still at work to be sure.

 

[just-want-peace]

The great accuser is still at work to be sure.

A true pity, as obvious as this is, that so many can't see it!

 

[Gold Dragon]

I only skimmed the first few pages so maybe I missed some key things in the second half of the article. But I got the impression that the article was about the movement of evangelicalism away from strict identification with the Republican party and politics in general. If that is the case, I see this change as a positive one. I'm not against evangelicals voting republican, but I am against the church being in bed with politics which I believe is consistent with the Baptist concept of separation of church and state.

 

[Alcott]

... article very interesting, but I have to warn you that it is very long (15 pages printed

In that case, I'm sure it ain't interesting enough to me.

 

[JustChristian]

Boy, libs sure hate to be called libs these days. Of course this is wrong in a couple of ways. No one was pushed out of the convention. We can all be sure the libs are still there. And call them moderates or liberals they are all still liberal what ever you call them.

As far as the rest of the article is concerned it is more propaganda.

Wake up and smell the coffee! The moderates of the SBC split off to form the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Wake up and smell the coffee! The moderates of the SBC split off to form the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

I don't know about any moderates. But liberals have joined it. And even then only a few of them.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Wake up and smell the coffee! The moderates of the SBC split off to form the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

I go up to Va. and NC a few time a week, there are a lot of liberal SBC churches up there. I don't have any facts but I would say the majority of the SBC churches up there are liberal, I come up to that from the amount of churches I've been in up thee. Look at there stave convention and one could tell if there are many liberals by how they vote on things.

 

[preachinjesus]

Always good to keep in mind that one man's liberal is another man's conservative...labels are libels...

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I do knw that among liberals most things are relative. Among conservative most things have clear definitions.

 

[preachinjesus]

And yet they lost,:thumbs:

See this is the problem man. You're turning Christianity into a contest, a "they lost!" "we won!" mentality...which is absolutely against the course of the Gospel.

The great accuser is still at work to be sure.

Well I don't know if this guy is demon possessed, but I am sympathetic to his point of view. There is much we have to be repentant over in evangelicalism. Notice in the front end of the article, about the pastor who preached against abortion for 52 weeks (hyperbole for sure but the point is valid.) Now I'm completely against abortion and view it as murder, but I would walk out of any church that preached about it for 52 weeks. There is more to spiritual formation than right wing politics.

That is what most people in our pews and chairs are tired of hearing, that spiritual maturity equals a republican vote. I'm tired of it too.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

See this is the problem man. You're turning Christianity into a contest, a "they lost!" "we won!" mentality...which is absolutely against the course of the Gospel.

No sir. I am not. When the libs shut anyone conservative out of committees and used the secular press to gain sympathy they turned it into a contest.

Well I don't know if this guy is demon possessed, but I am sympathetic to his point of view. There is much we have to be repentant over in evangelicalism. Notice in the front end of the article, about the pastor who preached against abortion for 52 weeks (hyperbole for sure but the point is valid.) Now I'm completely against abortion and view it as murder, but I would walk out of any church that preached about it for 52 weeks. There is more to spiritual formation than right wing politics.

That is what most people in our pews and chairs are tired of hearing, that spiritual maturity equals a republican vote. I'm tired of it too.

Did he really actually preach it for 52 weeks out of the year or is this hyperbole by someone who doesn't like the message? I doubt your use of the word "most" is accurate.

 

[Timsings]

. . . Did he really actually preach it for 52 weeks out of the year or is this hyperbole by someone who doesn't like the message? I doubt your use of the word "most" is accurate.

I have to wonder whether you have actually read the article. The mention of "52 weeks" came from a quote from the pastor.

"They said they were tired of hearing about abortion 52 weeks a year, hearing about all this political stuff!" he told me on a recent Sunday afternoon. "And these were the deacons of the church!"

preachinjesus is right. I would not stay in a church where the pastor talked about one subject constantly whether it was abortion, baptism, the Lord's Supper, the Sermon on the Mount, Paul's letter to the Romans, or what have you.

I think the problem highlighted in this article is that these churches lost perspective on the breadth of the gospel message. It doesn't apply just to abortion or just to other similar things. When you limit its application to one thing, you're limiting the gospel itself. A quote from one of the other pastors from Wichita is also pertinent here.

"I thought in my enthusiasm," he [Rev. Gene Carlson] told me with a smile, "that somehow we could band together and change things politically and everything would be fine." . . . "When you mix politics and religion," Carlson said, "you get politics."

That is true whether you are promoting a conservative agenda or a liberal agenda. And complaining about the actions of one group without recognizing the shortcomings of your own group is hypocritical. It seems to me that Jesus told a parable about something like that.

Tim Reynolds

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I have to wonder whether you have actually read the article. The mention of "52 weeks" came from a quote from the pastor.

He was quoting the deacon. It was Im sure an exageration as these things usually are.

preachinjesus is right. I would not stay in a church where the pastor talked about one subject constantly whether it was abortion, baptism, the Lord's Supper, the Sermon on the Mount, Paul's letter to the Romans, or what have you.

I think the problem highlighted in this article is that these churches lost perspective on the breadth of the gospel message. It doesn't apply just to abortion or just to other similar things. When you limit its application to one thing, you're limiting the gospel itself. A quote from one of the other pastors from Wichita is also pertinent here.

This was not established in the article. Although it does appear he preached on it quite regularly.

That is true whether you are promoting a conservative agenda or a liberal agenda. And complaining about the actions of one group without recognizing the shortcomings of your own group is hypocritical. It seems to me that Jesus told a parable about something like that.

Tim Reynolds[/quote]

 

[preachinjesus]

Perhaps the biggest incongruity between evangelicalism today is that while we have valiantly preached against societal ills and the evils of this world we often not done anything about them.

I still stand by my statement that evangelicals are at a crossroads and think this article is a fine example of the other cars waiting at the light. Evangelicals have been tremendous in being light to the world but horrible about being salt. We have pastors who have spoken against the ills of the abortion culture and the evil of the materialistic culture (while fully embracing it themselves) and the horid nature of extreme biblical redactionary criticism...but we have motivated our people to nothing beyond being appauled in the pew.

Abortion is evil...but protesting abortion clinics isn't the answer. What have you done to redeem the culture and the women in those horrible circumstances? The reality is that it is likely that we will have a pro-choice presidential race this time around with neither of the major parties presenting a pro-life candidate. How will we address this culture and redeem these women in need?

Divorce is horibble...but what are we doing to get our people, many of whom are divorced or will be divorced, to see God's grace in that circumstance?

Homosexuality is sin...but how many homosexuals have you prayed for/with and what are you doing to redeem them out of their culture?

Name any other cultural issue that evangelicals have stood firmly against...then ask what have we done as a group to redeem the culture and heal that wound?

That is biggest issue about evangelicalism. We're great at winning people to Jesus but horrible at making them disciples. We're great at addressing the ills of the world publicly but horrible at redeeming them privately. We're captains of the cliche but that is where it all stops.