Obey Father and Mother even when they are wrong

Nimrod, if you recall your Catholic upbringing well, you will recall that salvation is contingent upon keeping the various rites and rules of the church. This means that your parents are going to be terrified that you will go to hell if you stop attending Mass. So when you talk to them, please, please keep in mind that fear is going to be the motivating factor behind what they respond with -- fear for you because they love you dearly.

Your parents, like most of us I am sure, want the best for their children. Their idea of 'best' is for you to be a good Catholic. That makes it really hard, doesn't it?

You said you were saved at 15. That means you are older than 15 now. You are a young man who is learning how to think for himself. Please keep in mind (from a mother of six mostly grown children here) that the teen who thinks for himself is always a bit of a shock to a parent. We are used to really weird stuff out of you guys!

So that is going to be a problem for them, too!

Understanding, or trying to, both their shock and their fear, you then need to sit down quietly with them and explain what has happened to you and your feelings about Mass now. You can soften the blow by saying something along the lines of, "I am going to constantly pray to God for wisdom about this. I want you to know that. The first chapter of James says that we can ask for wisdom and God will give it -- so I'm praying for it. If God gives me the wisdom to see that I have been wrong, I will continue with Mass, but if I am given wisdom about understanding the Bible differently, then I can't go back. So I'll be doing a lot of Bible reading and I'll talk to you about what I am reading and thinking, OK?"

Invite them to read with you, if you can. A family Bible study is a wonderful thing and will help them see what you are saying and might also help them to think some things through themselves, in light of what the Bible is really saying compared to what the Catholic church says.

The Bible, as God's Word, will be your common ground. Read it consistently and be willing to talk very calmly and quietly about what you have read and ask them to read it, too, and see what they think. The more you can involve them, the less fear they will have for you, and that will help you all.

This will be a rough road for all of you. Walk it gently. God be with you.

 

Very wise post Helen.

Sister in Christ,
heidi

 

At 15 I was saved by the blood of Christ.

In other words, some Bible thumper came to your door (I guess it was two of them, since they generally work in pairs) and convinced you of his distortions of the Scriptures and you took the bait like a big ol' Susquehanna smallmouth bass takin' a crawfish!!

What happened to you at 15 is that you had a conversion experience. You were already saved in the way that Jesus taught, St. Paul taught, and the Church has taught for 2000 years. You were baptized, which placed you in Christ (Rom 6:3 & Gal. 3: 27) and took you out of the condemnation of being "in Adam" (Rom. 5: 12)

There was a deepening of your faith which the Catholic Church COULD HAVE been a part of if they weren't so busy ordaining goofy priests and women layservers!!! The one thing the Catholic Church needs to do in the next century is learn (if necessary, from the Protestants) how to TEACH THE FAITH!! They do an ATROCIOUS JOB of it now!!

[Our catechist, upon our graduation and entrance into the Church, said, with some ruefulness "You guys know more than 95% of the people in our parish right now]

No wonder guys like you are easy pickin's for the door knockers!!

In light of the Commandment "Obey thy Father and Mother". Am I to obey my parents and still practice Roman Catholicism even though I know it is wrong?

Uhhhhh....got news for you, pallie boy, you CAN'T practice the Catholic Faith until you come to your senses and REPENT of apostacizing and return to the Church. Next time your parents ask, REMIND THEM OF THAT!! To go to Mass in your condition would be to only add additional woes to your soul.

That should get you off the hook nicely. Other than that, obey the commandment by being polite and respectful to them.

 

Maybe you are thinking of Mormons. We go out in threes!

How do you know there were distortions? How do you know what was said? How do you know it happened this way? Lots of assumptions. Sounds like you have anger!

Aren't we saints too? Aren't believers in Scripture referred to as saints? I didn't see where they had to perform miracles after they are dead or some other stuff to become a saint in my Bible.

Wow, I agree with you! That would be a step in the right direction.

You sure do have a lot of pals around here!

Stop the press, I agree with you again!

Neal

[ January 02, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

Eph.6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

When the parent is doing that which is against the Lord, the child is under no obligation to obey the parent. It specifically says: "in the Lord."
DHK

 

Neal --

You and I would have FUN over a cup o' joe, wouldn't we?

Maybe you are thinking of Mormons. We go out in threes!

Interesting. Every Fundamentalist assembly I belonged to went out in two's.

How do you know there were distortions?

Very simple. If it doesn't agree with the Catholic Catechism, it is a distortion. And since it took Nimrod out of the Church, it had to disagree with the catechism, therefore, it is a distortion. [ Wasn't that easy

Sounds like you have anger!

Guilty as charged, sir!! And if you had been through what I went through, and what Fundamentalism put my family through, you'd be darn angry too!!!

Aren't we saints too?

Yupper. You are St. Neal. But you do not have the imprimateur that your writings are of divine inspiration, do you? Therefore, when he to whom visions were given and to whom the Gospel was given PERSONALLY BY CHRIST speaks, we do well to listen, don't we?

Aren't believers in Scripture referred to as saints?

Yes, sir! Sanctified ones. But like I said. St. Paul had an authority you and I do not have.

I didn't see where they had to perform miracles after their dead or some other stuff to become a saint in my Bible.

Actually, I think you would find it interesting to read some Church history and see the many miracles which were performed before death by many of the believers.

Wow, I agree with you! That would be a step in the right direction.

I'll go ya one better!! A bishop from the Ukrainian Catholic Church came to Philadelphia a while back and addressed a group of RC bishops. He told them, POINT BLANK,

"The moral depravity in this country can be laid at your feet"

Obviously, he did NOT get a standing ovation for that one. Yet time has proven him to be "spot on". The bishops in the RC rite need to get serious about A) church discipline B) teaching the faith C) making converts

You sure do have a lot of pals around here!

Just a bit of tongue in cheek. You know the deal.

Oh, and as for your post DHK --

In other words, his parents really aren't "in the Lord", right?

I a SOOOOOOOOO glad that Jesus and not you is going be my judge on the Last Day. I know that highly disappoints you. Try to take it in stride.

 

When two religions (even within the realm of Christendom) are so diametrically opposed to each other, they both cannot be right. All roads may lead to Rome, but not all roads lead to Christ. In fact only one does. Jesus Christ said, "I am the way." It is either the Catholic way or the Bible way. The two are not the same; they are both very different.
"As for me and my house we shall serve the Lord"
DHK

 

I'm dealing with this too somewhat... it seems my parents get uncomfortable when I disagree with them, about anything. :\

I would say... it depends on how old you are and whether or not you still live with them. If you have set yourself up on your own, then I don't think there's a need for giving and getting permission. You would often do well to ask for advice, however... parents only get smarter as you get older

 

Why didn't he go to confirmation classes at 15?

Are we sure that he didn't suddenly become a Baptist so he wouldn't have to do an extra evening class once a month? Odd timing, he suddenly becomes a baptist when he would normally be learning about Christianity for one hour a month in the evening.

I think Nim has sinned by not doing the classes. If after doing the classes he says "nope this is not for me" then all well and good fine. He should know what he wishes to reject before he rejects it.

Nim GO TO THE CONFIRMATION CLASSES

Thankyou.

Net.

 

I am guessing probably so!

We are getting ready to start Faith Evangelism at our church and we have teams of three.

But is it right...........

What denomination did you belong to?

Ummmm....I am afraid not. Actually, I would be afraid if they were, because I see what I write sometimes!

Boy, we were on a roll tonight. Yet again I agree with you! This is getting scary!

That is pretty interesting......

Unfortunately I do......

Neal

 

Neal --

Here's a bit of personal history for ya.

My mom left the Latin rite church before I was born. I was raised Episcopalian before they went nutz and started doin' all the crazy they are doin' now. I was very active in the Episcopalian assembly as a young man.

At 18, I declared myself an atheist [sooooooo brilliant at 18, aren't we ] and spent 4 years in every kind of imagineable depravity [these were the years of the "hippie movement" in the '60's ].

Okay, now it starts to git good. I went to Virginia Beach and met a "street evangelist" down there and "got saved". The only problem was that this guy was a 4 star whack case. About the only thing he preached that anyone on this board would agree with was that the Blood of Jesus saves sinners. That was his first point, his main point, and his last point in all he said. But other than that ..... yeeeeeeeow!!

He saw angels. [shhhuuuuuuuure he did!!!]

He saw the shekeinah glory of God [ riiiiiiiiight!!! ]

He spoke in tongues and had people "slain in the spirit" constantly.

I saw more nutty stuff than I care to repeat in four years under this guy's training.

Oh, and he was going to have a "Worldwide Ministry" to save the world!!!! What is it with these little storefront types that they are never satisified to save their own neighborhoods?

And in four years, it became a CULT. If you read any publication which outlines the marks of a cult, this was a cult, even if it wasn't very big or very influential.

Well, my wife criticized him and he broke us up. We are since back together, but there has been a real friction since then, an underlying current of distrust. Oh, and he and his group managed to get us both to "serve de Lawd" by signing over all our few and meager possessions to him and the group!!!

Well, once I escaped his clutches, I went to a Baptist assembly in Maryland. Not nearly as bad, but you know what, I got really, really involved in everything there. And instead of people saying "Something's wrong with this picture", they would tell me how holy I was and how God was going to use me greatly, yada, yada, yada. Meanwhile, I had a wife and two kids at home who needed a DADDY AND HUSBAND!!

Oh, but I was soul winning, and that was more important!! I was attending conferences on this and conferences on that and manning the soul winning hot line one night a week and on and on and on.....

VERY unbalanced.

Someone should have stepped in and said, "Hey, you hang around here an awful lot for a guy with a family. Let's have a cup of coffee and talk about this for a minute."

When I moved to Pennsylvania, I joined a "INDEPENDENT, FUNDAMENTAL, BIBLE BELIEVING" assembly. And I didn't miss a beat in continuing to be a religious workaholic at the expense of my family. And again, same story. Everyone thought "Ohhhhh, isn't he wonderful!!" instead of taking me aside and straightening me out.

And the family situation continued to go downhill. But when I voiced the problems, it was my wife who was the "b*itch" instead of ME [ and as far as I am concerned, in retrospect, it WAS ME ]. Everyone took my side and ganged up on her.

This is not to say that she didn't have some things that she needed to take care of also, but I am POSITIVE that with the proper amount of love and concern from both me and the people who I knew, she would have responded much more positively.

Oh, and I alienated most of my in-laws by my very, very insensitive "witnessing". You see, Fundamentalism teaches one to just bear down on the poor sinner and let him know what a wicked and evil cad he/she is without Jesus. And I did this with considerable gusto, kinda like ole DHK and his flair for insulting us Kathylics here. Needless to say, I didn't score many brownie points with my family.

In fact, the particular assemblies I went to were VERY VERY critical of EVERYONE, including other Fundamentalists!!! Bob Jones was our knight in shining armor. So was Jack Hyles and John Rice. But there were sermons which just SCALDED the "mainline assemblies" and other Fundamentalists and encouraged this kind of false pride that I was infested with. Now that's a real good way to win people to the Lord -- act like you are better than they are!!

And Calvinism didn't do me much better in making me see that such an attitude is just WRONG!!

Yeah, I became a distinctly UNLIKEABLE, ANNOYING, and WAY TOO BUSY person in Fundamentalism. I'm surprized my wife has put up with me for 30 years.

And then, there's that little issue of distorted Church history. If you don't know what I mean, keep an eye on DHK's posts and sooner or later he will tell you that the first Church was not universal and under the headship of the apostles, but was composed of "independant churches". I really didn't know that the Early Church, as early as the second century, believed in baptismal regeneration and the Eucharist. I didn't know anything about the great councils of the Church, the men like St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, St. Augustine.

And yes, certainly I bear some responsibility that I myself should have investigated these things, but at the same time, when one entrusts onesself to teachers, one expects those teachers to be well balanced and present all the sides of an argument. You do NOT get that in Fundamentalism. Every single message is a "soul winning" message. Man, how many ways can you tell people that Jesus died for them? I mean, you would think that any message which didn't have an "altar call" was like stickin' a knife in God's back, as if the preached Word itself couldn't make a change in a man's life, right?

Awwwww......it was so screwed up. I could go on for hours.

And say what you will, when I converted to the Catholic Faith and began to recieve the Eucharist, some really interesting and great things began to happen WITHIN and I am slowly but surely changing into a better person. My wife is noticing and so are my kids.

It's the LOVE of God vs the need to always be "right" doctrinally. What did St. Paul say?

"Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth"

Yeah, well, I've been puffed up for way too long now. Hopefully now I am beginning to not only be edified, but be an edifying person to be around.

But thanks for asking.

Brother Ed

 

It is either the Catholic way or the Bible way.

Every faithful Christian believes his/her way to be the Bible way. Heck, you couldn't get two Baptists in one congregation to believe exacely the same way 100%. This board is evidence of that.

Healthy Christian discussion can be positive. But it is my opinion that Nimrod's actions were neither healthy, nor positive, nor Christian.

 

Which actions were those ?

 

Nimrod --

Someone asked how old you were, I think. That
probably has significant influence on what you
should do and how it should be done. If you are
18 and over, you are a legal man, apparently cap-
able of making your own decisions.

I know that many say that as long as a young
person is living in the parents' house, eating their
food, not paying board, then that child must obey.
Others say that if they are paying room and board,
that gives them some freedom.

My son lived with us up to the time of his marriage,
at the age of 23; daughter, who married at 19, did
the same. They were good and responsible peo-
ple, and I enjoyed having them around, so I did not
encourage them to move out. However, as they
grew older, I backed off, becoming less and less
demanding. Young people need room to learn to
make their own decisions, right or wrong, and they
need to take responsibility for those decisions.

It is not that they did everything my way. I did not
approve of everything they did or thought or said,
and I expressed my opinions on these things. I
watched them make mistakes, learn by them, and
grow from their new knowledge.

I wonder, then, based upon this if you could have
a talk with Mother and Father, teling them that you
feel like a hypocrite, a liar, continuing to do these
practices you don't even believe, as you apparently
do. Could you ask permission to attend the wor-
ship/fellowship of your choice, promising them
that if you discover you are wrong, you will come
back to the Catholic church.

If they will not allow this, what about a comprom-
ise, so that you can at least attend some of the
services of your choice, like "I will attend Sunday
evening mass if you will allow me to attend my
church that morning."

Most parents do not want their child to be either a
hypocrite or an out-right liar. I would think that
this would be problematic to them.

 

I am sorry that you went through what you went through. I am not making light of your situation, so please do not take it that way.

I agree that we should be able to entrust ourselves to our teachers. I am a teacher of youth and I take that very seriously. However, teachers are men, and they will let you down at some point. That is why I don't like to put faith in men, because they are not God. I will have to answer for me, not them, and I can't pass the buck to them.

Also, what you experienced is not the "rule" for "Fundamentalism". Again, I do not like labels. I would not call my church a Fundamental church. But I would consider myself one, i.e. I hold to the fundamentals of God's Word.

Yes, someone should have said something to you. But you answer for you, not them. That is one of the hardest things for me to learn. I am a husband, seminary student, and youth minister. Yet my wife comes first (after my relationship with God, of course). Ministry is important, but it does not take precedent over family. Many get this wrong. I struggle with it. But it is clear from God's Word. The family was the first institution God made, not the church. I am the priest of my home. I have to lead my home as Christ is the head of the church. Boy, talk about a tall standard!

I am studying about Calvinism now too. But, I am not a Calvinist. I agree with some of it, but there are places that are clearly contrary to God's Word. Again, this is the problem with labels. There is so much baggage with them. Even if I believed all of Calvinism I would not call myself a Calvinist. I am not here to follow a man, I follow God.

Just remember that just because of some people the whole group is not just like them. I have had very hurtful experiences in church, yet I realize that it is men that are doing the hurt, not God. I have to live my life before Him the best I know how to by living by His Word. I can't control others, but I can control me. I agree that soul winning is extremely important. However, if a decision is forced, then it is not a real decision. If someone tells me to stop witnessing to them, I stop. If they want to know more, I tell them. It is their decision, not mine. I can only trust God to deal with that person and then move on.

I am truly sorry that you have suffered so much hurt. But please be careful about painting a whole group with a broad brush. It would just be so much better if people would focus on the Lord and His work rather than on themselves, so much less hurt........

God bless,
Neal

[ January 04, 2003, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

Hey all,

Just thought I would share a little about myself. I'm 19, and I decided to join the Catholic Church when I was 18. My parents were very shocked, and were, as expected, completely against it. And they pulled out the "as long as we support you, we tell you where you go to Church." This resulted in going as far as to one point threatening to not continue to pay for my college education.

But I pressed on, because I felt God leading. I have never in my life gone against my parents' will, nor do I have a desire to; I love my parents very much. However, in this instance, I felt that I HAD to act. So, when confirmation came around, I did not participate; I gave my parents more time to get comfortable with the idea, to give them time to see that I am mature enough to make this decision, and that I truly felt that this is what God wanted of me.

Over Christmas break, things went very well, and I have support and blessings from nearly everyone in my family, and even those that haven't given me their blessings are letting me walk this path unobstructed.

I think the real question is...if you are honoring God, is it possible to dishonor your parents? My answer is no. You might crush their pride a little bit, but by honoring God, you honor your parents.

Just my two cents. I'm joining the Church next Sunday at 6pm at St. Joseph's parish in Starkville, MS if anyone wants to attend!

God bless,

Grant