Obligatory Celibacy

[Rufus_1611]

So before Christ ascended into heaven, He left a book to guide His Church? I didn't know that...

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Huh? He gave authority to the apostles to loose and bind, the actions of those apostles was recorded in an inspired book. The book was completed and if you add to it or take away from it you get in a bit of trouble. For a Pope to forbid a bishop to marry, please explain how he is not adding or taking away from the words of the Holy Bible. Please explain how your authority can be the Bible and yet you have an authority that can trump the words contained in that Bible and cause it to say something else?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Huh? He gave authority to the apostles to loose and bind, the actions of those apostles was recorded in an inspired book. The book was completed and if you add to it or take away from it you get in a bit of trouble. For a Pope to forbid a bishop to marry, please explain how he is not adding or taking away from the words of the Holy Bible. Please explain how your authority can be the Bible and yet you have an authority that can trump the words contained in that Bible and cause it to say something else?

For one Rufus, it’s not ‘my’ authority; it’s not my place to interpret the bible on my own. If that were the case, I would do as any other Protestant Church and start my own Church based on my own warped interpretation of the bible.

Again, for the umpteenth time, clergy celibacy is not Church doctrine, it’s a practice…get it…do you even know the difference?

Again, for the umpteenth time, clergy celibacy is both practical and theological. It’s practical in that a priest can devote himself 100%, whereas a married clergy can’t help giving his first thoughts to his wife and kids and Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:32-34 understood this call. In addition, one of the greatest strengths of an unmarried clergy is their availability. During WWI, many British soldiers converted to Catholicism, b/c it were the Catholic priests that were on the front lines in the trenches hearing confessions and giving spiritual counsel. Many of the Anglican ministers held back, b/c they had wives and children.

It’s theological, because Christ spoke of those that renounce marriage for the sake of the kingdom. Yes, the Church, especially the Latin Rite, do require it’s priests to be celibate…their not forced, as you would like for everyone to believe. It’s a decision they make after prayer, it’s a call, it’s a gift and not everyone is called to be a priest.

I mean why would a Catholic want to become a priest, unless it was for the sake of the kingdom? Priests don’t make a heck of a lot of money, and please don’t feel sorry for the poor ‘ol priests b/c they can’t have sex or have a family, they do so not because it is forced upon them by some mean ‘ol Pope, they do so for the sake of the kingdom!

In any event, binding and loosening goes a lot farther than what’s recorded in Scripture, not to diminish Scripture, but I don’t believe for a second that as the Apostles were penning letters that they believed, it would later become a collected rule book. Tradition and Apostolic Succession go hand in hand in binding and loosing. The Keys Christ handed to Peter is a direct link to this Apostolic Succession. Christ left a representative of his kingdom as He is away, just as kings of the past would leave the keys to the kingdom to a representative who was granted full authority of the kingdom while he was away.

We see this example in Isaiah 22:20-24 and Eliakim.

In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father. All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.​

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[Rufus_1611]

For one Rufus, it’s not ‘my’ authority; it’s not my place to interpret the bible on my own. If that were the case, I would do as any other Protestant Church and start my own Church based on my own warped interpretation of the bible.

It is your place to intepret the Bible on your own. You have an open invitation to have a direct relationship to Jesus Christ and you need no other to intercede or tell you what scripture means. While brothers and sisters in Christ may help you along it is you that will be accountable for your beliefs.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15​

Again, for the umpteenth time, clergy celibacy is not Church doctrine, it’s a practice…get it…do you even know the difference?

A doctrine is whatever is taught. The pope just reaffirmed that the teaching of marriage being forbidden of bishops is an accurate teaching. The practice is the act of following this doctrine.

Again, for the umpteenth time, clergy celibacy is both practical and theological. It’s practical in that a priest can devote himself 100%, whereas a married clergy can’t help giving his first thoughts to his wife and kids and Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:32-34 understood this call. In addition, one of the greatest strengths of an unmarried clergy is their availability. During WWI, many British soldiers converted to Catholicism, b/c it were the Catholic priests that were on the front lines in the trenches hearing confessions and giving spiritual counsel. Many of the Anglican ministers held back, b/c they had wives and children.

It is also practical for an undershepherd to have a family that he might know first hand the challenges and blessings that come with a family and demonstrate that he is familiar enough with the Word of God to practice running a Godly house. This would give him practical experience by understanding and an example in guiding his flock.

It’s theological, because Christ spoke of those that renounce marriage for the sake of the kingdom. Yes, the Church, especially the Latin Rite, do require it’s priests to be celibate…their not forced, as you would like for everyone to believe. It’s a decision they make after prayer, it’s a call, it’s a gift and not everyone is called to be a priest.

They are obligated to be celibate if they desire to fulfill their calling to the priesthood, they are forbidden to marry.

I mean why would a Catholic want to become a priest, unless it was for the sake of the kingdom? Priests don’t make a heck of a lot of money, and please don’t feel sorry for the poor ‘ol priests b/c they can’t have sex or have a family, they do so not because it is forced upon them by some mean ‘ol Pope, they do so for the sake of the kingdom!

They do so because they are forbidden to marry if they desire the office of a bishop.

In any event, binding and loosening goes a lot farther than what’s recorded in Scripture, not to diminish Scripture, but I don’t believe for a second that as the Apostles were penning letters that they believed, it would later become a collected rule book.

You may not intend to but you are diminishing scripture.

Tradition and Apostolic Succession go hand in hand in binding and loosing. The Keys Christ handed to Peter is a direct link to this Apostolic Succession. Christ left a representative of his kingdom as He is away, just as kings of the past would leave the keys to the kingdom to a representative who was granted full authority of the kingdom while he was away.

Christ left us the Holy Ghost and was not a big fan of man's tradition. If you are such a fan of Peter than why do you not appreciate that Peter was married? Who was wrong, Peter for being wed or current popes for the forbidding of marriage?

We see this example in Isaiah 22:20-24 and Eliakim.

In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father. All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.​

 

[Agnus_Dei]

It is your place to intepret the Bible on your own.

Rufus: We all interpret Scripture within the traditions of our particular denomination. Lutherans interpret Scripture through a Lutheran perspective and a Baptist and Methodist…ect all interpret through their perspective. For years as a IFB, Sunday school was a preaching environment, I was told what to believe from a Baptist perspective…if I had a question about a particular verse of the bible that I was having trouble understanding (which are many…)…I seeked counsel from my pastor, who I trusted, b/c he went to Seminary and was educated in the scriptures, while I wasn’t.

Even the eunuch needed help understanding what he was reading.

You have an open invitation to have a direct relationship to Jesus Christ and you need no other to intercede or tell you what scripture means. While brothers and sisters in Christ may help you along it is you that will be accountable for your beliefs.

Then which denomination is right? The Protestant Church is a smorgasbord of beliefs and if all one needs is a relationship with Christ to get the proper interpretation of Scripture, and then please tell me which denomination will help me, since I’m going to be accountable for my own beliefs.

I have a personal relationship with Christ, only I interpret scripture through the eyes of Tradition…the tool by which the Church has determined correct Christian teaching. Tradition is determined by three things: 1) antiquity (what has been believed from the very beginning); 2) universality (what has been believed by all Christians everywhere); 3) consensus (what has been agreed to be orthodoxy, especially by the Church Councils and great Church Doctors).

A doctrine is whatever is taught. The pope just reaffirmed that the teaching of marriage being forbidden of bishops is an accurate teaching. The practice is the act of following this doctrine.

I’m sorry, I meant to say that Celibacy is a discipline and can be changed and can be regarded as a practice…If the Pope wakes in the morning he could allow priests too marry, if it’s doctrine, binding upon the Church, then he can’t.

Christ left us the Holy Ghost and was not a big fan of man's tradition.

You’re right ‘man’s’ tradition, there is a difference between Tradition (big ‘T’) and tradition (small ‘t’).

If you are such a fan of Peter than why do you not appreciate that Peter was married?

Have you not read any of my posts?

Who was wrong, Peter for being wed or current popes for the forbidding of marriage?

Have you not read any of my posts? I feel like a broken record…seriously, re-read this thread for the answer…

Anyway, why is it really a matter to you, you want to be Catholic priest, but can’t because your married?

The Popes not forbidding anyone to marry, it’s a personal choice of the individual; it’s a spiritual calling for the sake of the kingdom. There are many vocations one can do within the RCC where one can be married and still do the will of God!

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[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu: Please, enough of the posting of this nonsense. Do yourself a favor and get educated.

Yes, Peter was married…Yes, there are and still today married priests…yes, the Latin Rite requires its new priests to be celibate…yes, there’s no hint of celibacy being mandatory in the NT, but there’s ample warrant in the words of Christ and the writings of Paul that celibacy is a higher calling than that of marriage.

I have no objection to your observation up to this.

There are many reasons, both practical and theological, why the Church insists on clerical celibacy. The practice gradually codified in light of centuries of accumulated knowledge and experience. Early on it became obvious to bishops that a married priesthood doesn’t work and that the Church needs men who are willing to embrace a higher spiritual state.

So. did Roman Catholic improve what God commanded?

Were the Words of God written without knowing the problems and therefore it is now improved by Roman Catholic?

"Overseers should be a husband of one wife " ( 1 Tim 3:2 )

I don't say that a Celibate cannot be an overseer, but ask why Catholic do not allow their priests to marry despite their willingness when they want to. Is Catholic an army?

For example, in case of so-called Plymouth Brethren, they have many overseers who are married, but do have someone who kept Celibacy like J.N. Darby

Is such freedom not allowed in Roman Catholic?
Can you find such head quarter organization in the Bible?

 

[Rufus_1611]

Rufus: We all interpret Scripture within the traditions of our particular denomination. Lutherans interpret Scripture through a Lutheran perspective and a Baptist and Methodist…ect all interpret through their perspective. For years as a IFB, Sunday school was a preaching environment, I was told what to believe from a Baptist perspective…if I had a question about a particular verse of the bible that I was having trouble understanding (which are many…)…I seeked counsel from my pastor, who I trusted, b/c he went to Seminary and was educated in the scriptures, while I wasn’t.

Even the eunuch needed help understanding what he was reading.

The eunuch was a babe.

Then which denomination is right? The Protestant Church is a smorgasbord of beliefs and if all one needs is a relationship with Christ to get the proper interpretation of Scripture, and then please tell me which denomination will help me, since I’m going to be accountable for my own beliefs.

I would avoid the Protestant Churches as they are too closely aligned with the RCC and today are returning to Rome in various degrees. The denomination that is right is not a denomination at all. It is a separated new testament church that has not the pope, the state or any other body or person as the head of its church save for the Lord Jesus Christ. The undershepherd of the church is a man who is the husband of one wife and asserts his authority not as master but as a brother with a God ordained office. These local assemblies of believers have gone by many names throughout history but today they are commonly referred to as Independent Fundamental Baptist churches, though not all that carry this name are in fact, new testament churches.

I have a personal relationship with Christ, only I interpret scripture through the eyes of Tradition…the tool by which the Church has determined correct Christian teaching. Tradition is determined by three things: 1) antiquity (what has been believed from the very beginning); 2) universality (what has been believed by all Christians everywhere); 3) consensus (what has been agreed to be orthodoxy, especially by the Church Councils and great Church Doctors).

Which Jesus do you have a personal relationship with? Does the Jesus you have a relationship with have brothers?

I’m sorry, I meant to say that Celibacy is a discipline and can be changed and can be regarded as a practice…If the Pope wakes in the morning he could allow priests too marry, if it’s doctrine, binding upon the Church, then he can’t.

Hmm. Will you define for me then the words "doctrine", "discipline" and "practice" so that I understand your perspective?

You’re right ‘man’s’ tradition, there is a difference between Tradition (big ‘T’) and tradition (small ‘t’).

Have you not read any of my posts?


Have you not read any of my posts? I feel like a broken record…seriously, re-read this thread for the answer…

If you do not consider it doctrine then my comments may no longer be applicable.

Anyway, why is it really a matter to you, you want to be Catholic priest, but can’t because your married?

There are many things I desire to be but what you describe is not one of them. I would sooner have lemon juice poured into a paper cut.

The Popes not forbidding anyone to marry, it’s a personal choice of the individual; it’s a spiritual calling for the sake of the kingdom. There are many vocations one can do within the RCC where one can be married and still do the will of God!

 

[Eliyahu]

A typical problem with the Obligatory Celibacy:


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

 

[Eliyahu]

I have a personal relationship with Christ, only I interpret scripture through the eyes of Tradition…the tool by which the Church has determined correct Christian teaching. Tradition is determined by three things: 1) antiquity (what has been believed from the very beginning); 2) universality (what has been believed by all Christians everywhere); 3) consensus (what has been agreed to be orthodoxy, especially by the Church Councils and great Church Doctors).


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Bible admonishes you to discern for yourself with the assistance of Holy Spirit, no human tradition.

What if the human tradition is wrong, without your recognition?

1 John 2:
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

A typical problem with the Obligatory Celibacy:


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

Once again, this isn't an issue of celibacy, but a lack of celibacy as is the issue...

Spin it anyway you want, but the Protestant Church has proven with what the Christian Science Monitor reported as 3,000 plus sex-abuse claims within the Protestant denominations of a particular year of the 90s, that married clergy isn't the answer.

Yes, more needs to be done in prosecuting these priests.

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[Agnus_Dei]

Bible admonishes you to discern for yourself with the assistance of Holy Spirit, no human tradition.

What if the human tradition is wrong, without your recognition?

1 John 2:
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So what happens if my mother, brother and myself all come to a different interpretation of scripture in regard to a specific doctrine and each of us prayed for guidence of the Holy Spirit for truth?

Who's right and who's wrong...How do I determine...How can everyone be right when everyone's wrong?

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[Eliyahu]

Once again, this isn't an issue of celibacy, but a lack of celibacy as is the issue...

Spin it anyway you want, but the Protestant Church has proven with what the Christian Science Monitor reported as 3,000 plus sex-abuse claims within the Protestant denominations of a particular year of the 90s, that married clergy isn't the answer.

Yes, more needs to be done in prosecuting these priests.

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I agree that there are a lot of problems in the Protestant world as well. They are quite corrupted. But the Bible teaches this:

1 Cor 7:
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

 

[Eliyahu]

So what happens if my mother, brother and myself all come to a different interpretation of scripture in regard to a specific doctrine and each of us prayed for guidence of the Holy Spirit for truth?

Who's right and who's wrong...How do I determine...How can everyone be right when everyone's wrong?

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In such case, you can continue to discuss and study the Bible. Don't depart from the Bible, and if all of you are born again, you can reach the consensus very quickly. We sometimes argue on the interpretation of the Bible, but it is not difficult to find out who is right and who is wrong, if the parties are all born again believers as they have the same Holy Spirit.

When there is a fierce argument, we can have another audience of the born-again believers, and let them discern and judge both the arguments.

Between the true believers, if the meetings are properly organized, I don't think there will be much problems in resolving the differences and discrepancies.

On this board, there are so many people who never exchanged their testimonies on how they were saved, and what they believe, and therefore this internet environment is quite different from the living evangelical world.



Here is the teaching:

Proverb 27:17
17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Can you understand this?

The Born-again believers can be rectified and purified only by another Born-again believer.

 

[DHK]

Here is the teaching:

Proverb 27:17
17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Can you understand this?

The Born-again believers can be rectified and purified only by another Born-again believer.

This was the teaching of Paul also when he said to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

The "heresies" were differences in doctrine (some of which were false), and these differences came as a result of the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura. Paul commended this. By their own study the false doctrine "would be made manifest among them." It would be proven wrong. Sola scriptura is a means of weeding out wrong doctrine for the Bible is the final authority, and a proper study of it would lead them to a proper understanding in correct doctrine.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Here is the teaching:

Proverb 27:17
17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Can you understand this?

The Born-again believers can be rectified and purified only by another Born-again believer.

But first, before Born-again believer 'A' can be rectified and purified, he has to be convinced that Born-again believer 'B' is right...Then what if Born-again believer 'B' was actually wrong and Born-again believer 'A' was right, determined by Born-again believer 'C'?

Who trumps who, believer 'B' or believer 'C'?

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[Eliyahu]

But first, before Born-again believer 'A' can be rectified and purified, he has to be convinced that Born-again believer 'B' is right...Then what if Born-again believer 'B' was actually wrong and Born-again believer 'A' was right, determined by Born-again believer 'C'?

Who trumps who, believer 'B' or believer 'C'?

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Such question arise when the people never experienced the Person Holy Spirit. If you ever accepted HIm, you will experience that the Holy Spirit interfere with your life in person. He is a living person.
Neither B or C, but the Holy Spirit makes the conclusion.