Old Regular Baptist (revised)

[Frogman]

Dear Brethren,
I debated whether to put this post in the Denominations forum or here, you see which forum won the debate If I lost this debate, just let me know. If you want further information, let me know and I will pm to you contact info.

Bro. Dallas

Old Regular Baptists

The Old Regular Baptist Church of Jesus Christ is one of the subdenominations of the Baptist church, and is concentrated in an area along the Virginia and Kentucky border. Churches are found in other states as a result of outward migration from the region. As of 1987, there were seventy-three Old Regular churches, with a membership of 3285. The first association of churches which would become the Old Regular Baptists was formed in 1825. The New Salem Association was formed out of the Burning Spring A ssociation. Of the eight churches which originally made up the New Salem Association, only two remain. It was this association of churches that adopted the term Old Regular Baptist in 1892. They adopted a doctrine somewhere between the Calvinistic Primitive Baptists and the more Arminian Free Will and Missionary Baptists.

The Old Regulars believe in keeping with the "old ways." Their patriarchal organization follows a set of rules which has been lifted from the New Testament, forming the basis of their institution. The following are some examples: Women are denied a fo rmal voice in church governance (I Cor. 14:34). Men are commanded to cut their hair, and women are admonished not to do so (I Cor. 11:14-15). Women must not dress in men's clothing, i.e. slacks, jeans, pantsuits (Deut. 22:5). Men are to command their o wn homes (Eph. 5:22-23), particularly those ordained as deacons (I Tim. 3:12). These scriptural rules, and others are staunchly followed. The Old Regulars pride themselves on the belief that their church is most closely representative of the early Chris tian Church of the New Testament.

The Old Regular Baptist congregation ranges in size from four to nearly two hundred members, although they average between thirty-five to forty-five. They meet monthly and often attend the services of other Old Regular Churches on the Sundays their chu rch does not meet. There is a total of sixteen Old Regular Baptist associations. Some of them are in communication with each other, but not one is in communication with all. Each association has an annual meeting which serves as a business meeting, ext ended church service, and a homecoming for families who have moved away from the region.


SOVEREIGN GRACE OLD REGULAR BAPTISTS


SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION OF OLD REGULAR BAPTIST CHURCHES OF JESUS CHRIST.
This appears at present to be one of the smallest Old Regular Baptist Associations. They are however one of the strongest representatives of the original doctrine, faith and practice of the Old Regular Baptist in modern times.The churches of this association stress the Godhead,Inflability of the Old and New Testament,Election by Grace,Original Sin,Justification by the Imputed Righteousness of Jesus Christ,sinners being called to Repentance,Eternal Secruity,a properly ordained ministry.Their ministers preach a Travail from Nature to Grace,(there must be a begotting before there can be a birth.)They believe in a Last Day in which there will be a resurection of the dead the just and the unjust,the joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked will be eternal.They baptize by immersion, take the Lord's Supper with wine and unleavened bread which is followed by feet washing.Old Regular Baptist are non-instrumental prefering to line their songs in different meters.The members of this association practice modesty of dress.Sisters belonging to these churches do not cut their hair,brothers do not let their hair grow long.They have no secret orders among their membership. Sovereign Grace Association doesn't however infringe on any of it's Corresponding Associations and leaves them to settle their own matters.Like all Orthodox Old School Baptist they deny Freewillism,Arminism,Gospel Regeneration,Works for Eternal Salvation,Pre and Postmillenalism.While there are young people attending their churches, there is no Sunday Schools, Missionary Societies, ETC..Sovereign Grace Old Regulars believe the church of today has no right to place something in the church ,that Christ and the Apostles did not establish; that to do such would be adding to the Word of God. You will find these churches are very open to newcomers/outsiders.Visiting one of these churches is like taking a trip back in time, you will often hear shouting and praising the KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS, oldtime singing and love being manifested throughout the service,if you long for simple New Testament Worship vist one of these Old Regular Baptist Churches.


MOUNT ZION CHURCH: Located on State Route 309(8 miles west of Kenton,Ohio and 18 miles east of Lima,Ohio behind the roadside rest)This Church meets the first Sunday of every month @ 10:30 A.M

NEW MT.ZION CHURCH:Located on Kegley Street off 2nd Street north in Shelby, Ohio.This Church meets every 4th Sunday of every month
@ 10:00 A.M

BLESSED HOPE CHURCH: From Liberty,Kentucky take 70west to Moxley
Road turn left on Moxley by Creston Missionary Baptist then go 4.3 miles and as you come down a large hill turn left onto Spruce Pine Road the church is on the right 1/10th of amile.
This church meets on the 2nd Sunday of each month @ 9:30cst/10:30 est A.M and every Sunday @ 6:00cst/7:00est P.M


GREEN RIVER CHURCH: Lincoln County(McKinney),Kentucky take RT698
west from RT27 Go past Redeemption Road Church down the hill Church is approx.4miles from RT27 on the right.

This church meets on the 3rd Sunday most of the year.
FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THE SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION OF OLD REGULAR BAPTIST
OR WRITE TO SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION

4247 GUMLICK RD.
LIBERTY,KY 42539

 

[pinoybaptist]

Hi, Brother Dallas:

Something's been bugging me. Why the irregular schedules for some ? I mean, one sunday per month kind of meeting ?

Just wondering.

Thanks.

 

[Frogman]

Dear Brother Pinyobaptist,
I suppose this was a result of several factors related to colonial American history. Among these was prohibition by colonial government supported religions. In Virginia, the Anglican church prohibited any from assembling more than once per month unless the preacher was licensed by the Anglican church. Baptists and I suppose other groups could meet in a home, one time per month, but never in the same location for two consecutive months.

Perhaps transportation and other issues were at fault also. In Kentucky, Baptists were busy trying to establish their homes, avoid or battle Native American raids, until things became settled they would meet together in the nearest home and where ever a man was found to be called to preach they would hold services as such.

There are many missionary Baptists here in the Glasgow area who retain this 1x per month meeting.

I will try to find the source for my statements above and post it later; especially in regards to the restrictions by established societies prohibiting baptists from meeting more often.

IMHO, this is a hold over from those days, I may be completely wrong however, we haven't had any Indian uprisings here for years

Hope that helps. I think the information concerning Ky can be found in John Taylor's writings; and that concerning Va. I think I found in Jeffery Morehouse's The Indomintable Baptist

But don't hold me to those sources, I will check them and post them for sure later.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[Bethelassoc]

I believe that the once a month also came about due to lack of ministers. This still holds true for some United Baptists in eastern KY.

Churches today keep to the once a month as a tradition and travel to sister churches the other three weeks. I guess it would be like a traveling fellowship.

Frogman:

Thanks for the info on SGA.

Are you into studying the ORB? I have family in the Old Regulars and I've been working on their history along with the history of the United Baptists, where the Old Regulars came from.

 

[rsr]

I believe that the once a month also came about due to lack of ministers. This still holds true for some United Baptists in eastern KY.

This is still the practice for many Primitive Baptist churches.

 

[Bethelassoc]

And in case others want more info, Indian Bottom Association of Old Regular Baptists is on the net:

http://www.oldregularbaptist.org

I see that the site has changed some, but it was based on Indian Bottom churches from the beginning.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Frogman:

I found a site for Blessed Hope Church:

http://netministries.org/see/churches.exe/ch21126

 

[Frogman]

Are you into studying the ORB? I have family in the Old Regulars and I've been working on their history along with the history of the United Baptists, where the Old Regulars came from.

Thanks. I think you are right about the lack of ministers being a cause of once a month meetings. Those missionary Baptists around here who meet in this manner also visit other churches in the area in their off days.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Bethelassoc]

This same problem was found with the songleaders (which usually were the traveling preachers).

Back years ago, when my grandfather was alive and traveled the churches, he usually had a songbook like the "Sweet Songster" and would line out the songs to the church (since songbooks were also scarce). He traveled in both the Old Regular and United Baptist churches.

 

[rlvaughn]

Frogman, do you know if the Sovereign Grace Association is a new association? I've never seen it mentioned in any of the correspondence with other Old Regular Associations.

Bethelassoc, do you all use the "Sweet Songster"? Most of the Old Regulars appear to use it and/or Thomas' hymnal?

The Old Regular Baptists of Central Appalachia: Brothers and Sisters in Hope, by Howard Dorgan, is an interesting read on this group.

Old Regular Baptist link

 

[Frogman]

Dear Brother Vaughan,

I found this file through the HBS. An Elder in the Primitive Baptist said this group is not historically identified as 'Sovereign Grace' Old Regular Baptist, but simply as Old Regular Baptist.

He commented this to me and others in an email message. I will find it and post his comments when I get home from work.

Bro. Dallas
Brethren, below is the email message received from a PB email message group regarding the "Sovereign Grace" Old Regular Baptists.

Dear Brethren,
Recently Brother asked me about a Baptist group that had been named in an article found in another discussion group that he and I read. The term for that Baptist group was given as Sovereign Grace Old Regular Baptists. However, the actual group name is the Old Regular Baptists. In that article many similarities to Primitive Baptists were mentioned, and Brother Sing wrote me privately asking to know if these were actually PBs.

[ April 13, 2004, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[Bethelassoc]

rlvaughn:

My association doesn't use the Sweet Songster, but some of the associations east of the Mississippi do. They also use the New Baptist Songbook (also known as the United Baptist songbook), the Thomas Hymnal, and another one called "Some of Our Favorite Songs" (Little Rosa church, New Salem Assoc?) printed in Pippa Passes, KY.

It depends on the association and if they line out the songs like the ORBs and some PBs.

With my UBC research, I've had an Elder Sloan from SGA contact me with history information. I had never heard of SGA either and had to have him explain more about it.

I know that there is a list of ORB associations listed on Wikipedia, but here's my list of associations that are or were ORB (I'm still varifying if they are correct):

New Salem
Sardis
Indian Bottom
Union
Thornton Union
Bethel
Northern New Salem
Philadelphia
Burning Springs
Old Stone Cole
(Old)Friendship
Mud River
Sand Lick
Mates Creek
Kyova
Little River
Mountain
Mountain Liberty
Sovereign Grace
Twin Creek

A good book that I've found is the "History of Regular Baptist and Their Ancestors and Accessors" by Rufus Perrigan. I haven't been through the whole book yet (I placed it somewhere so good, I can't find it right now!), but I've found great information to use.

[ April 13, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Bethelassoc ]

 

[Frogman]

Dear Bethelassoc,
I believe an Elder Sloan, or maybe two different Elder Sloans are identified with the article I posted.

I removed their names because I do not know them and did not know if they would care for me using their name on the www.

So, according to your post, the Sov. Grace Old Regular Baptist Assoc. is their true name, is that right?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Dallas:

I looked back at my records and realized I had mispelled his name, but that website I posted for Blessed Hope church gives his contact information.

He called it "SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION OF OLD REGULAR BAPTIST".

 

[rlvaughn]

Bethelassoc: I have the first three song books you mention. If you have a complete address for ordering the 4th one (Some of Our Favorite Songs), could you pm it to me? Also do you know if Perrigan's History of Regular Baptists is still available anywhere?

I can confirm the existence of the following associations, up to just a few years ago: New Salem, Sardis, Indian Bottom, Old Indian Bottom, Union, Thornton Union, Little Dove, Bethel, Northern New Salem, Philadelphia, Friendship, Old Friendship, Mud River, Mountain, and Mountain Liberty. The following I don't know about: Sand Lick, Mates Creek, Kyova, Twin Creek, Burning Springs, and Old Stone Cole. There is a Mate's Creek Primitive Baptist Association, and, from the best information I have been able to gather (which doesn't make it so), the Kyova is probably out of existence. I'm a little leery of such pronouncements, though. The Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists pronounces several United Baptist associations with which you would be familiar as "extinct"!

Frogman: I don't know which is the correct official name, but "Sovereign Grace Association of Old Regular Baptist Churches of Jesus Christ" is consistent with the way most of the Old Regular Associations style themselves.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro. Vaughn:

I do know that Twin Creek is extinct. I found it in Vol 2 of Spencer's History of KY Baptists. I'm in correspondance with an ORB member that is getting me more information on Sand Lick and Mates Creek. He says that his church has a history book on some United Baptist associations that went ORB, but he missed the Sunday they had service there.

I know what you mean about so called extinct associations. I've changed my UBC list several times because of verification problems.

The Regular Baptist History book by Perrigan is non-existant, as far as I know. I fought to get this one and I've had several offers to sell. If I can find it again, I'll pm you the info on it.

BTW, do you sing any of them old "Songs of Zion" out of them song books?

 

[rlvaughn]

None of those song books are in use here. The only Baptists that sing a cappella from "words-only" hymn books around here (that I know of) are the Absolute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists, who use mostly Benjamin Lloyd's Primitive Hymns and sometimes D. H. Goble's Primitive Baptist Hymn Book. The Limited Predestinarian Primitive Baptists pull these books out once in awhile, but the majority of them use the Old School Hymnal, which includes tunes with the words. When these "words-only" books are used, it is almost always everyone singing the melody in unison (no harmony parts). Usually only on the "opening hymn" of the service is lining ever done. We also sing many of the same tunes in the Sacred Harp book, but this has four-part harmony.

There was an Old Regular Baptist elder who lived and worked for a time in New Braunfels, Texas, but I believe he moved back to the Appalachias; I lost contact with him.

I have a few photocopy pages of Perrigan's work, but have never seen an actual copy of the book.

 

[Frogman]

Thanks Brothers Bethelassoc and Vaughan.

I guess the elder there would know the name of the association, wouldn't he?

I am into studying the OR Baptists, and all Baptist groups.

Brother Tyndale got me on it with his 'Split of 1832' post and I have been trying to study 'old' Baptists ever since.

The SGLMB (or SGLIB) independent or missionary, there may be minor differences, I was in a Bible Conference with these (I believe SGLIB) last summer in Dothan Alabama.

Since I have noticed some of these identify themselves as SGLMB (seem associated with the now passed away Elder Milburn Cockrell). Each group, this is where the Landmark comes into the SGL_B name.

I just love history and have found I cannot 'see' something in print without having to read it

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[Bethelassoc]

When these "words-only" books are used, it is almost always everyone singing the melody in unison (no harmony parts).

I know what you mean. ORBs find it "frivolous" to sing in harmony. They feel that in unison, the church is singing with one voice. We harmonized our lined out singing back home. I enjoy the melodious sound of harmony.

Do you all have the CDs of ORB (I believe it is also Indian Bottom Association) songs? I have vol.1, but I know there is a second volume out now.

Also, I keep this website on hand, in case there are other media added to order:

http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/resource/chap13.html

Since we are on the topic of lined out singing, "Gaelic Psalms From Lewis" from Greentrax Recordings is an interesting CD that shows the origins of lined out singing from Scotland. It's in Gaelic, but you can hear the lining out. Lined out singing is the oldest religious a capella singing in the U.S.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

As of 1987, there were seventy-three Old Regular churches, with a membership of 3285. The first association of churches which would become the Old Regular Baptists was formed in 1825. The New Salem Association was formed out of the Burning Spring A ssociation. Of the eight churches which originally made up the New Salem Association, only two remain. It was this association of churches that adopted the term Old Regular Baptist in 1892. They adopted a doctrine somewhere between the Calvinistic Primitive Baptists and the more Arminian Free Will and Missionary Baptists.

Dear Bro. Dallas.

I don't know where the quote came from, but since no one else has mentioned it, I will. The statistics above are goofy. There are many, many more Old Regular Baptists than 73 churches with 3285 members. This sounds like it might be one associational body. The last statistic I saw from some one who studied them intently was in the neighborhood of 18,000 members.

I also would like to point out there there is a separate group, known as Regular Baptist, or generically in the local area as Union Baptists, who are not affiliated with the GARB churches of the North. These Regular or Union Baptists are centered in Northwestern North Carolina, Southwestern Virginia and West Virginia. They are very similar in theology and practice to Old Regular Baptists, but there are some differences. There are around 200 of these churches in associations with the following names:

Union
Primitive
Mountain Union #1
Mountain Union #2
Little River #1
Little River #2
Little River #3
LIttle Valley
Friendship.
Mitchell's River

Additionally there were two other associations which were affiliated with these bodies in historic times, but have since become Southern Baptists, specifically the Stony Fork Association and the Blue Ridge Associations.

These associations were formed in the 1860's mostly by Primitive Baptists who had joined the Heroes of America or Union League, and were excommunicated for affiliating with "secret orders." These Primitive Baptists were joined by some early Southern Baptists who had like wise been turned out of their respective churches for the same offenses, or real or perceived crimes committed during the Civil War. All were Repulicans from their organizations. (That is why in Appalachia, almost all Primitive Baptists are Democrats and almost all Union Baptists are Republicans). In the beginnings of the Union Baptist movement, these bodies were very similar to Primitive Baptists, but as time progressed and the Missionary Baptists gathered strength in the mountains, they (the Union Baptists) tilted more toward that point of view.

In recent years there have been attempts to start a "Correspondence" between some of the Union Baptists and the Old Regular Baptists.

Jeff