Once Saved Always Saved

[BobRyan]

1Timothy 3:1-6

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.

Question was posed by Ken at
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1056007&postcount=79

 

[angelfire]

loss of Salvation?

I once did an extensive study of this question while in Bible College
The result was surprising I found 114 verses that said NO and 76 verses that indicated YES
Christ says your name CAN be stricken from the "book of life" either He is lying , mistaken , or mad.
I believe the Bible to be the least read bestseller of all time. --Get a good library and dig for yourself on this one. Better yet , stay totally away from ANY situations that might tempt you --resist the Devil and you wont have to worry about this question either way
in Christ
angelfire

 

[steaver]

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9

If this is the "best argument" then we OSAS folks can rest "assured".

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[charles_creech78]

Thaniks for all you help with the conversation about Judas. Which brings me to the next questions. Can you lose your salvation? And is OSAS a license to sin? Thank you guys so much it has been very helpful.

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are Yea, and in him Amen, vnto the glory of God by vs.
2Co 1:21 Now hee which stablisheth vs with you, in Christ, and hath anoynted vs, is God,
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed vs, and giuen the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glorie, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of trueth, the Gospel of your saluation: in whom also after that yee beleeued, yee were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceede out of your mouth, but that which is good to the vse of edifying, that it may minister grace vnto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieue not the holy Sririt of God, whereby yee are sealed vnto the day of redemption. 1Jn 3:9 Whosoeuer is borne of God, doth not commit sinne: for his seede remaineth in him, and he cannot sinne, because he is borne of God.

 

[steaver]

Below is the proper "rightly dividing of the truth" for 2Pt 2:20-22 for those interested in knowing the lesson Peter is giving us about "false prophets". The key is he calls them "false".......2Pe 2:1¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,

False means "fake, not true"

Verse 20 begins with an if which must not be overlooked. Peter does not say that these false teachers have escaped from the pollutions of the world. The main verb is overcome (Gr hetaomai) which is in the Greek present tense, implying that they are now being overcome or conquered by the terrible sins depicted in this chapter; the construction in the original has the effect of a present contrary-to-fact protasis. The writer, Peter, views the statement as a premise which is contrary to fact. He says, "if it were true that these false prophets were just now being conqueredby sin and had already escaped the pollutions of the world (it is not true, but if it were) , then they would actually be in worse condition now than when they started." These false teachers of course had never really escaped the pollutions of the world like true believers (cf. 1:4) ; if they had, and were now as entangled (Gr empleco, meaning "hopelessly trapped" like a fish in a net) as they are in sin, they would be better off if they had never heard of Christianity. According to their pretense, they claim to have been saved; according to fact, they have returned to the most despicable sins. This would be, obviously, like a dog eating its vomit, or a pig which has been washed going back to wallow in the mire.

The whole chapter warns the believers to secure the faith which had been preached to them by the apostles against the barbarous attack by obvious frauds who have shown themselves worthy of the certain judgment of God which will come upon them.

Benjamin C Chapman, Ph.D. King James Commentary.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

The result was surprising I found 114 verses that said NO and 76 verses that indicated YES
Christ says your name CAN be stricken from the "book of life" either He is lying , mistaken , or mad.

Well, it can't be both, so at best you can only conclude that you do not know the answer to the question.

Either "born of God" by the "will of God" means exactly what it says or it means something else. What could be the "something else"?

There is absolutely no way one can change who their father is, nor who their Father is.

Children of God are saved. So one must take a long hard look into just what those "76" are really saying.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9



Problem for OSAS - HOW can it be BETTER to burn forever in hell than to HAVE KNOWN Christ and then turned away only to spend eternity with Christ?

Steaver your "solution" was in the form of "I am ok with that" -- as if that solves something for the OSAS group.

Kind of curious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[charles_creech78]

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9



Problem for OSAS - HOW can it be BETTER to burn forever in hell than to HAVE KNOWN Christ and then turned away only to spend eternity with Christ?

Steaver your "solution" was in the form of "I am ok with that" -- as if that solves something for the OSAS group.

Kind of curious.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob what is your point that a man can lose God after being born again. Is that your point. Plus do you think this man was saved or born again that done these thing?

 

[TCGreek]

If it weren't for a text like Heb 7:25, my faith would have been gone a long time ago and I would be forever lost. But thank God for the precious promise of Heb 7:25:

"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them" (TNIV, emphasis mine).

 

[Ed Edwards]

If it were for a text like Heb 7:25, my faith would have been gone a long time ago and I would be forever lost. But thank God for the precious promise of Heb 7:25:

"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them" (TNIV, emphasis mine).

Amen, Brother TCGreek - Preach it!

It gets even better if one reads the Translator Margin Notes:

Therefore he is able to save completely* those who
come to God through him, because he always lives
to intercede for them.

*Translator Margin Note:
Or forever


In other words, the following is a perfectly good English
reading supported by the Greek:

Therefore he is able to save forever those who
come to God through him, because he always lives
to intercede for them.

That sounds like a good definition of OSAS!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9



Problem for OSAS - HOW can it be BETTER to burn forever in hell than to HAVE KNOWN Christ and then turned away only to spend eternity with Christ?

Steaver your "solution" was in the form of "I am ok with that" -- as if that solves something for the OSAS group.

Kind of curious.

Bob what is your point that a man can lose God after being born again. Is that your point. Plus do you think this man was saved or born again that done these thing?

Matt 18 tells us about "forgivness revoked"
John 15 about being severed from Christ.
Gal 5 about being severed from Christ
Romans 11 tells us about being severed from Christ

But the text above makes it clear that the person has actually escaped the condemnation, defilement, sin and condemnation of this world -- and then "turns back".

If you are lost the entire time - you could not "fail in remaining lost". The proof that you are lost is not that you failed to remain lost. The text is speaking to failure to reman in that state of having escaped the defilement of the world THROUGH the knowledge of Christ.

IF that state is "just another lost state" then you would be spinning it back to "failing to REMAIN in a lost state means you never were saved to start with" which makes no sense at all.

IF on the other hand that state of "having escaped" is the SAVED state and so ALSO is the state of falling from that condition and returning to the old state the "SAVED state as well" - then one can not argue that it is better that you never were saved at all rather than be in that SAVED state!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

But the text above makes it clear that the person has actually escaped the condemnation, defilement, sin and condemnation of this world -- and then "turns back".

Verse 20 begins with an if which must not be overlooked. Peter does not say that these false teachers have escaped from the pollutions of the world. The main verb is overcome (Gr hetaomai) which is in the Greek present tense, implying that they are now being overcome or conquered by the terrible sins depicted in this chapter; the construction in the original has the effect of a present contrary-to-fact protasis. The writer, Peter, views the statement as a premise which is contrary to fact. He says, "if it were true that these false prophets were just now being conqueredby sin and had already escaped the pollutions of the world (it is not true, but if it were) , then they would actually be in worse condition now than when they started." These false teachers of course had never really escaped the pollutions of the world like true believers (cf. 1:4) ; if they had, and were now as entangled (Gr empleco, meaning "hopelessly trapped" like a fish in a net) as they are in sin, they would be better off if they had never heard of Christianity. According to their pretense, they claim to have been saved; according to fact, they have returned to the most despicable sins. This would be, obviously, like a dog eating its vomit, or a pig which has been washed going back to wallow in the mire. (cf post #105)

If you are lost the entire time - you could not "fail in remaining lost". The proof that you are lost is not that you failed to remain lost. The text is speaking to failure to reman in that state of having escaped the defilement of the world THROUGH the knowledge of Christ.

See above.

IF that state is "just another lost state" then you would be spinning it back to "failing to REMAIN in a lost state means you never were saved to start with" which makes no sense at all.

If you begin in error you will continue in error. The text is not speaking about believers becoming lost, it is clearly speaking of "false" teachers. Read the first verse and everything will clear up for you.

IF on the other hand that state of "having escaped" is the SAVED state and so ALSO is the state of falling from that condition and returning to the old state the "SAVED state as well" - then one can not argue that it is better that you never were saved at all rather than be in that SAVED state!

in Christ,

Bob

This would be true IF you premise were true. However, no premise is needed but the one actually given in the text and that is verse 1, these are "false" teachers.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Matt 18 tells us about "forgivness revoked"

Nowhere does it say such.

John 15 about being severed from Christ.
Gal 5 about being severed from Christ
Romans 11 tells us about being severed from Christ

sure does, but not the way you would like to believe things.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Said Quote:
John 15 about being severed from Christ.
Gal 5 about being severed from Christ
Romans 11 tells us about being severed from Christ

Steaver
sure does, but not the way you would like to believe things.

Oh - so "He meant that in a GOOD way"??!!:laugh: :wavey:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Matt 18 tells us about "forgivness revoked"

Steaver said
Nowhere does it say such.

ahhh - you took the bait.

Hmm Steaver well "we will just have to take a look at it then and SEE what it says".

First the obligatory summary of the entire discussion in Matt 18 (don't you just hate it when you ASK me to do this ??)


Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

#8. The Cahpter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots o time -- but if you do not nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

The response of those what believe in OSAS will often list reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but they never actually address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.

That is instructive.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

Matt 18
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” and tries the solution of “works” to repay – the Lord has mercy on him anyway. He dismisses the attempt at works and makes it clear that pure grace pure mercy alone solve the problem. Fully solve the problem and so He “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

Matt 18
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.


Matt 18

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

Matt 18
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

Matt 18
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.
Matt 18
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues (and motivates Peter via the illustration given as an answer to Peter’s question) that WE who have been forgiven by our heavenly Father “should” as in (are obligated to) forgive others.

Paul makes this same case in Col 3


Col 3

11a [b]renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew[/b], circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all[/b].
12So, as those who have been chosen[/b] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other[/b], whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
[/quote]

This new life of loving and forgiving others is not a “given” it is a focus, an objective, it is the subject of Paul’s instruction – we must be commanded, motivated, encouraged admonished to walk in a way that embraces the act of forgiving others. (Just As Christ points out in Matt 18)

 

[charles_creech78]

Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

Matt 18
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” and tries the solution of “works” to repay – the Lord has mercy on him anyway. He dismisses the attempt at works and makes it clear that pure grace pure mercy alone solve the problem. Fully solve the problem and so He “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

Matt 18
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heauenly Father do also vnto you, if yee from your hearts forgiue not euery one his brother their trespasses. A born again Christain will not do this. Because he is born of God and God is love therefore he that is born of God is born of Love. Get it right for the LAW is NOT GIVEN to the righteuss but for the sinners and disobedant. He is not talking to a Born again Christain. 1Jn 3:14 Wee know that wee haue passed from death vnto life, because wee LOVE the brethren: he that loueth not his brother, abideth in DEATH.

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 18 Christ does not say "I FORGAVE you your sins and so of course you naturally forgive others JUST AS you were forgiven because that is the only way it ever goes for someone who really receives full forgiveness from Me".

As much as that makes a good story -- it is just not in the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9



Problem for OSAS - HOW can it be BETTER to burn forever in hell than to HAVE KNOWN Christ and then turned away only to spend eternity with Christ?

Steaver your "solution" was in the form of "I am ok with that" -- as if that solves something for the OSAS group.

Kind of curious.

Some of the spin doctors will try to "Spin" this to "that is just false teachers that are lost the entire time" in an effort to completely IGNORE the details of the text where it says

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse

Notice that the text does not just say they "just know something ABOUT Christ" it says "THEY HAVE ESCAPED" the defilements of th world THROUGH living, viable, active effective knowlege of Christ - knowledge that RESULTS in real escape from the real defilements of the real world.

These details are of course devastating to OSAS so it is no wonder that people would want to gloss over these Biblical details.

My argument is that at some point EVEN on a subject like this one - the Bible should begin to carry more weight with you than the iron-grip hold of man-made-traditions.

in Christ,

Bob