Once Saved Always Saved

[Ed Edwards]

Definination of 'Saved' (IAW John 3:16-17)

Being granted eternal life by Jesus.

Personally that definition allows nothing other
than OSAS (Once your are Saved, you Always stay Saved by
the power of Christ in God.)

I see no reason to change my definition of 'saved'
to fit someone else's misunderstanding of any scripture.

 

[charles_creech78]

I beg to differ with your statement above -

Matt 18

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

your statement above is not because of the content in this text - it is in spite of it.

Looks to me you are stuck on that scripture in Matt. and don't no how to rightly devide the word of truth. Again I will give it to you again . THE LAW ( BIBLE) IS NOT GIVEN TO [A RIGHTEUSS MAN] but for SINNERS and the DISOBEDANT. For Christ came not to call the righteouss to repentence but the SINNERS.:BangHead:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ah, I found where a certain verse was located:

Matthew 18:34 (NAS = New American Standard Bible)
And his lord, moved with anger, handed him
over to the torturers until he should repay
all that was owed him.

The key word was 'torturers', this is usually
'tormentors' in many English Versions of this verse.
I managed to find this NAS after only search a
dozen or so Bibles.

Uh, I've found a problem with taking my doctrines
from parables. The parable usually don't go to
far. For example, the 'torturers' reminds me of
going through the Tribulation Period. Can
Christian people mess up to much that they go
into the Tribulation Period? (My answer - NO)
Can Christian people mess up so much that they go
to Hell? (My answer - NO)
This parable can't go there, cause Jesus didn't
take it there.

What this parable says to me is that I aught to
forgive, especially my Christian Brothers & Sisters,
when they sin against me or sin against God.

So I'm going forgive my Brother/Sister who
has sinned a sin that some might think them to loose
their salvation -- I'm going to tell them they need to
straighten up their house - a saved person would do
that, when they see they have sinned.
I'm going to forgive my sinning Brother/Sister
who has sinned against me -- I've been Saved by
Jesus & will be saved forever.

 

[Bro. Williams]

Well I would really like to have any answers given to be backed up with scriptures. I was told it was a doctrine of demons 1Tim. 4:1. I am a new believer and I do not even know if that verse has anything to do with it or not.

Who ever told you that OSAS had anything to do with I Tim. 4:1 is either 1) a desperate liar or 2) ignorant of the scriptures. I Tim. 4:1 has nothing to do with OSAS.

Likely, the perpetrator is using that verse, and the term doctrine of "devils" (KJV) because it sounds intimidating and important. They should reread the passage, and the Bible.

 

[steaver]

Brother BobRyan,

Pick one;

1) I am saved by grace through faith and not of myself.

2) I am saved if I forgive everyone from my heart.

I trust you will see that the view you present of Matt 18 must be in error in light of Eph 2 alone.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[charles_creech78]

Brother BobRyan,

Pick one;

1) I am saved by grace through faith and not of myself.

2) I am saved if I forgive everyone from my heart.

I trust you will see that the view you present of Matt 18 must be in error in light of Eph 2 alone.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Amen good point.:thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Who ever told you that OSAS had anything
to do with I Tim. 4:1 is either
1) a desperate liar
or 2) ignorant of the scriptures.
I Tim. 4:1 has nothing to do with OSAS.

Amen, Brother Bro. Williams -- Preach it! :thumbs:

1 Timothy 4:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
Now the Spirit speaketh euidently, that in the latter times
some shall depart from the faith,
and shall giue heede vnto spirits of errour,
and doctrines of deuils,
2 Which speake lies through hypocrisie,
and haue their cosciences burned with an hote yron,
3 Forbidding to marrie,
and commanding to abstaine from meates
which God hath created to be receiued
with giuing thankes of them which beleeue and knowe the trueth.

Sounds to me it is talking about false doctrine
and it specifies in verse 3 what the false doctrines
are:

1. forbidding to marry
2. commanding to abstain from meat

You will be glad to know that I
not only don't 1) forbid to marry
or 2) commeand to abstain from meat,
I practice those behavours: IN FACT,
I'm married right now and ate some meat
about an hour ago.
(I thanked God for the wife and for the meat,
as a born-again elect Christian saint aught
to do & will do as often as possible)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Can you lose your salvation? And is OSAS a license to sin?

Brother Charles_creech78 answered the first
question in post #104 (NO). Brother Paul answers
the second question (NO) here:

Gal 5:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
For brethren, ye haue beene called vnto liberty,
onely vse not libertie for an occasion to the flesh,
but by loue serue one another.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan just pointed out the inconvenient details in Romans 11, John 15, Matt 18, Gal 5:4-7, 2Peter 2:20-22 etc.

Looks to me you are stuck on that scripture in Matt. and don't no how to rightly devide the word of truth. Again I will give it to you again . THE LAW ( BIBLE) IS NOT GIVEN TO [A RIGHTEUSS MAN] but for SINNERS and the DISOBEDANT. For Christ came not to call the righteouss to repentence but the SINNERS.:BangHead:

Good dodge.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9



Problem for OSAS - HOW can it be BETTER to burn forever in hell than to HAVE KNOWN Christ and then turned away only to spend eternity with Christ?

Steaver your "solution" was in the form of "I am ok with that" -- as if that solves something for the OSAS group.

Kind of curious.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

 

[charles_creech78]

Bob Ryan just pointed out the inconvenient details in Romans 11, John 15, Matt 18 etc.



Good dodge.

in Christ,

Bob

Good dodge. of what. You have given nothing that the scripture said he was talking to the born again Christain. Your fact is that OSAS is false. But you stick with one part of the scripture. You said we can fall away. Rom 8:35 Who shall separate vs from the loue of Christ? shall tribulation, or distresse, or persecution, or famine, or nakednesse, or perill, or sword?
Rom 8:36 (As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long, wee are accounted as sheepe for the slaughter.)
Rom 8:37 Nay in all these things wee are more then conquerours, through him that loued vs.
Rom 8:38 For I am perswaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shalbe able to separate vs from the loue of God, which is in Christ Iesus our Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Brother BobRyan,

Pick one;

1) I am saved by grace through faith and not of myself.

2) I am saved if I forgive everyone from my heart.

I trust you will see that the view you present of Matt 18 must be in error in light of Eph 2 alone.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Wrong - My quote of Matt 18 remains exegetically exact and this little diversion above is neither a detailed review of Eph 2 OR a review of Matt 18 OR a review of Gal 5 OR a review of 2Peter 2: 20 OR a review of ANY text brought into the discussion.

Having said that -- I have to believe that as lacking as that is on your part -- a number of people here have just got to be satisified with it just as it is.

But you have to ask yourself - shouldn't that fact alone be enough to wake you up to the problem that you are having on that one Steaver?

Since when is LESS attention to scripture the BEST defense for Good doctrine? Surely someone here has got to notice the problem!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9



Problem for OSAS - HOW can it be BETTER to burn forever in hell than to HAVE KNOWN Christ and then turned away only to spend eternity with Christ?

Steaver your "solution" was in the form of "I am ok with that" -- as if that solves something for the OSAS group.

Kind of curious.

 

[TCGreek]

Apart from your translation, I love those verses. They portray an indissoluble covenant between Christ and those who have trusted in Him for complete salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ never said that it was revokable in Matt 18 or anywhere else.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
I beg to differ with your statement above -

Matt 18

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

your statement above is not because of the content in this text - it is in spite of it.

1. It is a parable my friend to show the absurdity of failing to forgive as a follower of Christ.

Incorrect. In the parable Christ does NOT take the OSAS form of saying "this shows just how impossible it is for those who ARE forgiven to be unforgiving" RATHER it is the BIBLE form of WARNING against doing that very thing!!

2. If you want to live with the notion that if after being saved by the Lord complete that your salvation can be revoked, then go ahead.

It is a fallacy to argue as you do above that reading this teXT AND ACCEPTING it NEED only be done by those who "WANT to be at risk of forgiveness revoked" that is not exegesis AND it does nothing to address the hard questions that OSAS faces when confronted with the text. you are merely ducking it.

3. But according to Rom 8:1, "Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus" (emphasis mine).

I agree with you that OSAS can survive Romans 8:1 much better than it can survive Matt 18, John 15, Romans 11, Gal 5 etc.
Hint: It has never been my claim that OSAS is debunked by EVERY text of scripture.

4. But when I fail to forgive others the Lord disciplines me as a loving parent, but not as a judge.

Again - it is noted that forgiveness revoked is "the DETAIL" of the Matt 18 text that you are trying to avoid.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Apart from your translation, I love those verses..

IS it your claim by "your translation" that I am the author of the NASB??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
I beg to differ with your statement above -

Matt 18

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

your statement above is not because of the content in this text - it is in spite of it.





Incorrect. In the parable Christ does NOT take the OSAS form of saying "this shows just how impossible it is for those who ARE forgiven to be unforgiving" RATHER it is the BIBLE form of WARNING against doing that very thing!!



It is a fallacy to argue as you do above that reading this teXT AND ACCEPTING it NEED only be done by those who "WANT to be at risk of forgiveness revoked" that is not exegesis AND it does nothing to address the hard questions that OSAS faces when confronted with the text. you are merely ducking it.




I agree with you that OSAS can survive Romans 8:1 much better than it can survive Matt 18, John 15, Romans 11, Gal 5 etc.
Hint: It has never been my claim that OSAS is debunked by EVERY text of scripture.



Again - it is noted that forgiveness revoked is "the DETAIL" of the Matt 18 text that you are trying to avoid.

in Christ,

Bob

1. BR, we cannot build whole doctrines on parables, for that is not the nature of them.

2. The Jesus you are portraying in this parable is vastly different than the Jesus of John 10:25-29.

3. I suggest that you interpret Matt 18 in light of the whole of Scripture on eternal security.

 

[TCGreek]

IS it your claim by "your translation" that I am the author of the NASB??

in Christ,

Bob

I use the NASB. I was referring to Charles post. Sorry about that! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

1. BR, we cannot build whole doctrines on parables, for that is not the nature of them.

Neither can we take the teachings of Christ found in the Gospels and ignore them when they happen to be illustrated with a parable.

Imagine if Christ had said "Here let me illustrate my point with a parable so you can ignore it".

And as for "ONLY" giving a parable - I show that BEYOND the parable Christ (not the "king" in the parable) makes the application EXTERNAL to the parable "SO shall My Father do to you IF YOU do not ...".

Further more I illustrate the very same problem in John 15, Gal 5, Romans 11, 2Peter 2 -- there is no way to gloss over all of them as parables.

As for Forgiveness revoked in Matt 18 -- it is also in Ezek 18.

2. The Jesus you are portraying in this parable is vastly different than the Jesus of John 10:25-29.

I beg to differ - it is one and the same Christ and he is giving the FULL teaching on the subject of salvation in scripture. We do not have the option of saying "I believe John 10 but not Matt 18".

3. I suggest that you interpret Matt 18 in light of the whole of Scripture on eternal security.

Which is why I have added John 15, Romans 11, Gal 5, 2Peter 2, Ezek 18 (and I could add Heb 6, 1Cor 9, 2 Tim 2...etc)

BTW I notice that you are not appealing to any detail at all in Matt 18 to try and solve the problem for OSAS that is presented there -- are you changing your mind on that one?