Once Saved Always Saved

[Ed Edwards]

Romans 11 tells us about being severed from Christ

Romans 11 talks about groups of people.
For example, many Arabs today will not be accepting
Christ cause their government lobs the heads of those
who speak the Gospel of Christ.

Gal 5 about being severed from Christ

I don't find the word 'severed' in Galations, KJV1769 Edition..
Please help me figure out what you are talking about.

Matt 18 tells us about "forgivness revoked"

I didn't find the words 'forgivness' nor 'revoked'
in Matthew, KJV1769 Edition.
Please help me figure out what you are talking about.

However, I did read this OSAS verse:

Mat 18:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And said, Uerily I say vnto you,
Except yee be conuerted, and become
as little children, yee shall not enter
into the kingdome of heauen.

I did NOT read this no-OSAS passage there:

Mat 18:3 (SAV = SavedAlot Version)
And said, Uerily I say vnto you,
Except yee be conuerted
TWR THREE TIMES, and become
as little children, yee shall not enter
into the kingdome of heauen.

John 15 about being severed from Christ.

I didn't find the word 'severed''
in John, KJV1769 Edition.
Please help me figure out what you are talking about.

I did note this OSAS Scripture:

Joh 15:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
If ye abide in me,
and my words abide in you,
ye shall aske what ye will,
and it shall be done vnto you.

I did NOT read this no-OSAS passage there:

Joh 15:7 (SAV = SavedAlot Version):
If ye abide in me,
and my words abide in you,
ye shall aske what ye will,
and it shall be done vnto you.
BUT PLEASE DON'T ASK ME
TO KEEP MY WORDS ABIDING
IN YOU - I CAN'T DO THAT.
AND DON'T ASK ME TO
SAVE YOU FOREVER - I CAN'T
DO THAT EITHER.

 

[TCGreek]

We need to see the forgiveness of God in two ways:

1. Judicial Forgives: God acts as a judge and forgives all those who believe in Christ completely, for past, present and future sins. "Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:1, HCSB).

2. Parental Forgiveness: God acts as our parent. In this case, when believers fail to forgive, God disciplines as a parent, but our salvation is not at jeopardy, for it is already secured in Christ (Matt. 18).

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Romans 11 tells us about being severed from Christ

Ed said
Romans 11 talks about groups of people.
For example, many Arabs today will not be accepting
Christ cause their government lobs the heads of those
who speak the Gospel of Christ.

Let's look at Romans 11 carefully to see if that summary is accurate.

Hint:
"He is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief"

That detail from Romans 11 alone shows that your comment is not completely accurate.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The "natural branches" removed for unbelief BELONG in the tree by their very origin and source as "A holy nation- a kingdom of priests" Ex 19.

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for [/B]God is able to graft them in again.[/B]

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Which verse? Which version? How about a little help here.
Thank you. (I have dozens of versions, at least remind me
which version you use so I can check it out. Thank you.)

Anyway, I don't think that Romans 11 is about individuals
but about groups.

Recall that individuals can vary from what the group does.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11 Vs 19 and 20 "Broken off" carries the meaning of "severed" just as it does in John 15.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:Bob said
John 15 about being severed from Christ.

Ed said
I didn't find the word 'severed''
in John, KJV1769 Edition.
Please help me figure out what you are talking about.

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away[/b]; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up[/b]; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The illustration is painfully clear to the objective unbiased reader. The branch that is REMOVED from the vine DOES dry up. The branch goes from the state of being “IN ME” to being “TAKEN AWAY” and even “THROWN AWAY” – dried up and then when cast into the fire it is burned TO ASHES. It does not rise from the ashes come back to life and re-attach itself to the vine. Rather this is “destruction by fire and being reduced to ASHES”

The sad truth for those who need to hope for salvation AWAY from Christ – OUTSIDE of Christ – is that there is “NONE”!

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18

Matt 18

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

Matt 18
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.
Matt 18
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues (and motivates Peter via the illustration given as an answer to Peter’s question) that WE who have been forgiven by our heavenly Father “should” as in (are obligated to) forgive others.

Paul makes this same case in Col 3


Col 3

11a [b]renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew[/b], circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all[/b].
12So, as those who have been chosen[/b] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other[/b], whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

This new life of loving and forgiving others is not a “given” it is a focus, an objective, it is the subject of Paul’s instruction – we must be commanded, motivated, encouraged admonished to walk in a way that embraces the act of forgiving others. (Just As Christ points out in Matt 18)[/quote]

Quote:
Matt 18 tells us about "forgivness revoked"

Ed
I didn't find the words 'forgivness' nor 'revoked'
in Matthew, KJV1769 Edition.

Please help me figure out what you are talking about.

I am helping with that by highlighting the text in blue and underlining it. My thought is that if you just skim through via the underlined sections on the first light-pass through and then on the second pass take in the other details as well -- it should be pretty easy to see "I FORGAVE you ALL" follwed by "MAKE HIM REPAY ALL that he owes".

Please let me know if there are there more questions-

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Romans 11:25 (KJV1873 Edition):

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye
should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened
to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
be come in.

The 'fulness of the Gentiles be come in' is about
the completing of the Church Age ( AKA: 'age of Grace',
'time of the Gentiles', i.e. the current evil age).
The current Church Age is described by signs in
Matthew 24:4-14. The current Church Age started
at the Day of Pentacost when the Holy Spirit was given,
the current Church Age will end at the Pretribulation
Rapture/Resurrection (PTR&R) when the Holy Spirt
will not be present for it resided in the Church Age Saints.
The Holy Spirit will not be gone permanently, but will
still commit His mission of convicting humans of sin.
The current Church Age saints are mostly gentiles saved
by the Grace of God. There are a few Messanic Jews who
believe that Yeshua ben Yoseph of Nazereth (AKA: Jesus)
is the Messiah. There aught to be enough Messanic Jews
to make up the 144,000 special servants of Messiah Yeshua
noted at the start of Revelation Chapter 7.

Say, is OSAS - vaild in the Church Age - still valid
in the Tribulation Period? The method of salvation is
the same in the Trilbulation Period as it was in
the Church Age: If you confess Messiah Yeshua as Lord
and believe in your heart that G-d raised Him from the
dead -- you get saved. In the Tribulation Period it
is the same: If you confess Messiah Yeshua as Lord
and believe in your heart that G-d raised Him from the
dead -- you get saved.
Some people say you have to repent before you are
saved. I know I had to repent before I could properly
call Jesus my 'Lord'. So if you aren't in good standing
with G-d, to get saved one will have to repent.

 

[BobRyan]

2. Parental Forgiveness: God acts as our parent. In this case, when believers fail to forgive, God disciplines as a parent, but our salvation is not at jeopardy, for it is already secured in Christ (Matt. 18).

When the slave comes to the king owing a great debt -- is that the "secure in Christ position" before they have been forgiven "no need for forgiveness no need to change"??

What about AFTER they are forgiven when the King says "HEY I forgave you ALL that immense debt" and argues that in gratitude for the MASSIVE debt forgiven the one forgiven SHOULD likewise forgive the TINY DEBTS incurred between servants.

Is it your argument that Christ is NOT talking about forgiveness of sins????

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

When the slave comes to the king owing a great debt -- is that the "secure in Christ position" before they have been forgiven "no need for forgiveness no need to change"??

What about AFTER they are forgiven when the King says "HEY I forgave you ALL that immense debt" and argues that in gratitude for the MASSIVE debt forgiven the one forgiven SHOULD likewise forgive the TINY DEBTS incurred between servants.

Is it your argument that Christ is NOT talking about forgiveness of sins????

in Christ,

Bob

1. The setting of this parable are the questions of Peter v.21.

2. The parable was meant to teach one truth: the absurdity of unforgiveness when you yourself have been forgiven.

3. The elements of the parable are just that, elements--but the conclusion is drawn by Jesus in v.35.

4. I submit that this is a parental forgiveness in view, not judicial. The Believer's salvation is secured by the blood of Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ argues that Peter not be limited to 7x7 in forgiving others because the forgivness of the sin debt that is basic to salvation SHOULD evoke a spirit of gratitude that forgives OTHERS their TINY debts as compared to the MASSIVE debt forgiven in the salvation transaction with God.

There is simply no way to avoid this in Matt 18.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

And we are in sync. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed but by making this an argument for "forgiving others" by appealing first to our much more massive "forgiveness" in the Gospel Christ is presenting us with an illustration devastating to OSAS by taking that FORMER forgiveness and showing that it is revokable -- which is the point I was trying to make initially.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

Indeed but by making this an argument for "forgiving others" by appealing first to our much more massive "forgiveness" in the Gospel Christ is presenting us with an illustration devastating to OSAS by taking that FORMER forgiveness and showing that it is revokable -- which is the point I was trying to make initially.

in Christ,

Bob

Christ never said that it was revokable in Matt 18 or anywhere else.

 

[BobRyan]

I beg to differ with your statement above -

Matt 18

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

your statement above is not because of the content in this text - it is in spite of it.

 

[TCGreek]

I beg to differ with your statement above -

Matt 18

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

your statement above is not because of the content in this text - it is in spite of it.

1. It is a parable my friend to show the absurdity of failing to forgive as a follower of Christ.

2. If you want to live with the notion that if after being saved by the Lord complete that your salvation can be revoked, then go ahead.

3. But according to Rom 8:1, "Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus" (emphasis mine).

4. But when I fail to forgive others the Lord disciplines me as a loving parent, but not as a judge.

 

[BobRyan]

It is "not the king in the parable" that says "SO shall my Father do to each one of you" it is Christ making a statement outside the parable.

Again - you are avoiding the force of the point from Matt 18 to argue your case. Clearly your case has to be made in spite of these inconvenient details in Matt 18 -- and not because of them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

It is "not the king in the parable" that says "SO shall my Father do to each one of you" it is Christ making a statement outside the parable.

Again - you are avoiding the force of the point from Matt 18 to argue your case. Clearly your case has to be made in spite of these inconvenient details in Matt 18 -- and not because of them.

in Christ,

Bob

1. Are you willing to go into detail about every element in the parable? Where do you want to begin and where do you want to end?

2. I believe that my conclusions of any passage must take the entire context of Scripture into consideration.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Is it your argument that Christ is NOT talking about forgiveness of sins????

No.

If one has been saved, they will forgive the sins against them.
But there is a sin unto death (the first death).

I know both my children I took to chuch.
They were not to talk during preaching or invitation.
I took them out when they were younger and applied the
board of education to the seat of the problem. When they were
older I took them out and they got a more direct sermon from
Deacon Ed. (I only had to do that to one of my two children).

I wonder if one doesn't fogive those who sin against them
enough, if God gets embarassed and yanks them out of
this life unto heaven? They are still saved and will still be
resurrected at the Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection (PTR&R)

maybe in that case PTR&R means Premature Taking
for Rest & Relaxation..


Old songs they don't sing much anymore:

Oh Day of Rest for thee I sigh,
When shall my moment come?
When I shall lay my armor by
And dwell at peace with him.

We'll work, Till Jesus comes;
We'll work, Till Jesus comes;
We'll work, Till Jesus comes;
Then we'll be gathered home!

Jesus saves lots better
than I could ever save myself.