Once Saved Always Saved

[TCGreek]

Neither can we take the teachings of Christ found in the Gospels and ignore them when they happen to be illustrated with a parable.

1. The truth being illustrated I agree is stated in v. 35.

Imagine if Christ had said "Here let me illustrate my point with a parable so you can ignore it".

And as for "ONLY" giving a parable - I show that BEYOND the parable Christ (not the "king" in the parable) makes the application EXTERNAL to the parable "SO shall My Father do to you IF YOU do not ...".

Further more I illustrate the very same problem in John 15, Gal 5, Romans 11, 2Peter 2 -- there is no way to gloss over all of them as parables.

As for Forgiveness revoked in Matt 18 -- it is also in Ezek 18.



I beg to differ - it is one and the same Christ and he is giving the FULL teaching on the subject of salvation in scripture. We do not have the option of saying "I believe John 10 but not Matt 18".

2. Jesus is not addressing the issue of salvation.

3. The text doesn't say that or even imply such.

Which is why I have added John 15, Romans 11, Gal 5, 2Peter 2, Ezek 18 (and I could add Heb 6, 1Cor 9, 2 Tim 2...etc)

BTW I notice that you are not appealing to any detail at all in Matt 18 to try and solve the problem for OSAS that is presented there -- are you changing your mind on that one?

4. The details are simple the mode of transport for the truth of v.35, so I don't need to get into them. That is my understand of how a parable works, for you may beg to differ and that is ok with me.

 

[charles_creech78]

IS it your claim by "your translation" that I am the author of the NASB??

in Christ,

Bob

Ok tell me how a man can fall away from God? What does he have to do to do this. Is he born again when he does it yes or no?

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 18 he is born again - FULLY forgiven and yet fails to forgive others - his forgiveness is revoked according to Christ.

In John 15:1-5 he is born again and "IN CHRIST" but failing to produce fruit is severed from Christ REMOVED from Christ.

In Gal 5 he is born again IN Christ, IN Grace and as Paul says to the Galatians "you were running well -- who hindered you" -- and then "you have been SEVERED from Christ, FALLEN from GRACE"

in Romans 11 they are BORN again and IN Christ - standing by faith -- but then they do not CONTINUE in that SAME faith and are removed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan said
Which is why I have added John 15, Romans 11, Gal 5, 2Peter 2, Ezek 18 (and I could add Heb 6, 1Cor 9, 2 Tim 2...etc)

BTW I notice that you are not appealing to any detail at all in Matt 18 to try and solve the problem for OSAS that is presented there -- are you changing your mind on that one?

4. The details are simple the mode of transport for the truth of v.35, so I don't need to get into them. That is my understand of how a parable works, for you may beg to differ and that is ok with me.

Question regarding your ignoring scripture's details in that confessed way.

What RC priest, Mormon Elder-Priest, JW teacher could NOT make a case for EACH of their false doctrines using the method you are recommending above??

Isn't the ENTIRE REASON for using exegesis to make your case "sola scriptura" and SHOW that it stands the test of scripture -- intended to avoid the very problem you are embracing?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

Question regarding your ignoring scripture's details in that confessed way.

1. Your judgment is exactly that, your judgment.

[QOUTE] What RC priest, Mormon Elder-Priest, JW teacher could NOT make a case for EACH of their false doctrines using the method you are recommending above??[/QUOTE]

2. Avoid the slippery slope fallacy!

3. I stand proudly in the company of man sound, faithful, evangelical exegetes of the Scriptures with my approach to the parables.

Isn't the ENTIRE REASON for using exegesis to make your case "sola scriptura" and SHOW that it stands the test of scripture -- intended to avoid the very problem you are embracing?

in Christ,

Bob

4. For going into this discussion, we have ipso facto affirmed sola scriptura.

 

[TCGreek]

I can assure that all those texts that you proposed to teach a true believer can lose her salvation can and have been harmonized with the doctrine of eternal security as presented in Scripture.

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by steaver
Brother BobRyan,

Pick one;

1) I am saved by grace through faith and not of myself.

2) I am saved if I forgive everyone from my heart.

I trust you will see that the view you present of Matt 18 must be in error in light of Eph 2 alone.

God Bless! :thumbs:

BobRyan......

Wrong

I guess that simple question I asked makes your Matt 18 theory blow up! If an exegesis cannot answer a simple critical question then it fails for lack of fact.

- My quote of Matt 18 remains exegetically exact and this little diversion above is neither a detailed review of Eph 2 OR a review of Matt 18 OR a review of Gal 5 OR a review of 2Peter 2: 20 OR a review of ANY text brought into the discussion.

Now who is diverting? Can you answer the simple question?

Having said that -- I have to believe that as lacking as that is on your part -- a number of people here have just got to be satisified with it just as it is.

But you have to ask yourself - shouldn't that fact alone be enough to wake you up to the problem that you are having on that one Steaver?

I have no problem with it. I have done my homework and my final answers have all the scriptures in harmony with OSAS.

Here my simple answer to the choices I gave....I pick #1. See, no problem for me to figure it out.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[charles_creech78]

I guess that simple question I asked makes your Matt 18 theory blow up! If an exegesis cannot answer a simple critical question then it fails for lack of fact.





Now who is diverting? Can you answer the simple question?


I have no problem with it. I have done my homework and my final answers have all the scriptures in harmony with OSAS.

Here my simple answer to the choices I gave....I pick #1. See, no problem for me to figure it out.

God Bless! :thumbs:

He won't answer you he is stuck on Matt. there is to much scripture saying a person that is born again cannot lose God. The only way you can lose God spiritual is by sinning. 1ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers 1ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 1jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law 1jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. There you go it just said whosoever sinneth hath not seen him NEITHER KNOWN HIM. If you are born again you know him. Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: DEPART from me, ye that work iniquity. Again he said I never KNEW YOU. It planly tells you what you are if you commit sin . 1jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. The works of the devil is sin. Does it say you are born of God. (NO) 1jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Is someone deciving you Bob Ryan. 1jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. A man that is BORN OF GOD cannot COMMIT sin. For he has a seed that remaneth in him and he cannot sin. That SEED is JESUS CHRIST. That is if you are really BORN AGAIN. If you say that this man that was born of God and he sinneth. Then you are saying Christ is a sinner. Christ is the one who born his soul again. And in Christ there is no sin. This man that done this is not Born of God. He is of the devil and he never knew God. He needs to repent and be born again. 1pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible SEED, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. What is the word of God? Jesus Christ. He is that INCORRUPTIBLE SEED. There for if you are born of that seed how can you be CORRUPTIBLE. When it said the seed that you are born of is INCORRUPTIBLE.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCGreek
4. The details are simple the mode of transport for the truth of v.35, so I don't need to get into them. That is my understand of how a parable works, for you may beg to differ and that is ok with me.

Bob said
Question regarding your ignoring scripture's details in that confessed way.

What RC priest, Mormon Elder-Priest, JW teacher could NOT make a case for EACH of their false doctrines using the method you are recommending above??

Isn't the ENTIRE REASON for using exegesis to make your case "sola scriptura" and SHOW that it stands the test of scripture -- intended to avoid the very problem you are embracing?

I can assure that all those texts that you proposed to teach a true believer can lose her salvation can and have been harmonized with the doctrine of eternal security as presented in Scripture.

Ahh yes - the appeal to a mythical event as "the solution".

It seems to me that IF a solution existed for OSAS in light of these texts - one would actually be "shown" instead of simply hoped for.

In the mean time - I am going to have to go with scripture on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

In Matt 18 he is born again - FULLY forgiven and yet fails to forgive others - his forgiveness is revoked according to Christ.

In John 15:1-5 he is born again and "IN CHRIST" but failing to produce fruit is severed from Christ REMOVED from Christ.

In Gal 5 he is born again IN Christ, IN Grace and as Paul says to the Galatians "you were running well -- who hindered you" -- and then "you have been SEVERED from Christ, FALLEN from GRACE"

in Romans 11 they are BORN again and IN Christ - standing by faith -- but then they do not CONTINUE in that SAME faith and are removed.

In Christ,

Bob

The man in Mt 18 said " I will pay thee all" ( 26) and the lord said " because thou desirest me" (32)

Then Jesus mentioned to Disciples about the principle of forgiving in v 35., and that cannot be the evidence for the cancellation of the salvation.
If such behavior happens to believers, they may be punished but not the loss of salvation.
So, OSAS is correct.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by steaver
Brother BobRyan,

Pick one;

1) I am saved by grace through faith and not of myself.

2) I am saved if I forgive everyone from my heart.

I trust you will see that the view you present of Matt 18 must be in error in light of Eph 2 alone.

Bob said
Wrong - My quote of Matt 18 remains exegetically exact and this little diversion above is neither a detailed review of Eph 2 OR a review of Matt 18 OR a review of Gal 5 OR a review of 2Peter 2: 20 OR a review of ANY text brought into the discussion.

Having said that -- I have to believe that as lacking as that is on your part -- a number of people here have just got to be satisified with it just as it is.

But you have to ask yourself - shouldn't that fact alone be enough to wake you up to the problem that you are having on that one Steaver?

Since when is LESS attention to scripture the BEST defense for Good doctrine? Surely someone here has got to notice the problem!

I have no problem with it.

I think we can all see that.

Steaver

I have done my homework and my final answers have all the scriptures in harmony with OSAS.

hmm - is that true?

Then this thread seems like a good place to "do the math" instead of making the empty claim "sure I coulda if I really wanted to 'cause I did it one time before".:sleeping_2:

I have to think that the objective unbiased reader is not going to gloss over that fact as quickly as you suppose.raying:


in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I have to think that the objective unbiased reader is not going to gloss over that fact as quickly as you suppose.raying:


in Christ,

Bob

Well brother, you sure have glossed over these two post and you might hope they get buried somewhere in your multiple postings of the same points that have already been refuted...........but here they are and remain...

Originally Posted by steaver
Brother BobRyan,

Pick one;

1) I am saved by grace through faith and not of myself.

2) I am saved if I forgive everyone from my heart.

I trust you will see that the view you present of Matt 18 must be in error in light of Eph 2 alone.

Verse 20 begins with an if which must not be overlooked. Peter does not say that these false teachers have escaped from the pollutions of the world. The main verb is overcome (Gr hetaomai) which is in the Greek present tense, implying that they are now being overcome or conquered by the terrible sins depicted in this chapter; the construction in the original has the effect of a present contrary-to-fact protasis. The writer, Peter, views the statement as a premise which is contrary to fact. He says, "if it were true that these false prophets were just now being conqueredby sin and had already escaped the pollutions of the world (it is not true, but if it were) , then they would actually be in worse condition now than when they started." These false teachers of course had never really escaped the pollutions of the world like true believers (cf. 1:4) ; if they had, and were now as entangled (Gr empleco, meaning "hopelessly trapped" like a fish in a net) as they are in sin, they would be better off if they had never heard of Christianity. According to their pretense, they claim to have been saved; according to fact, they have returned to the most despicable sins. This would be, obviously, like a dog eating its vomit, or a pig which has been washed going back to wallow in the mire. (cf post #105)

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

[/I]






Ahh yes - the appeal to a mythical event as "the solution".

It seems to me that IF a solution existed for OSAS in light of these texts - one would actually be "shown" instead of simply hoped for.

In the mean time - I am going to have to go with scripture on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

1. When I read a text like Rom 8:30, What is mythical about what the truth of this passage?

"And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified"

2. Everyone that the Father has justified in His Son, He will glorified.

 

[charles_creech78]

. The only way you can lose God spiritual is by sinning. 1ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers 1ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 1jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law 1jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. There you go it just said whosoever sinneth hath not seen him NEITHER KNOWN HIM. If you are born again you know him. Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: DEPART from me, ye that work iniquity. Again he said I never KNEW YOU. It planly tells you what you are if you commit sin . 1jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. The works of the devil is sin. Does it say you are born of God. (NO) 1jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Is someone deciving you Bob Ryan. 1jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. A man that is BORN OF GOD cannot COMMIT sin. For he has a seed that remaneth in him and he cannot sin. That SEED is JESUS CHRIST. That is if you are really BORN AGAIN. If you say that this man that was born of God and he sinneth. Then you are saying Christ is a sinner. Christ is the one who born his soul again. And in Christ there is no sin. This man that done this is not Born of God. He is of the devil and he never knew God. He needs to repent and be born again. 1pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible SEED, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. What is the word of God? Jesus Christ. He is that INCORRUPTIBLE SEED. There for if you are born of that seed how can you be CORRUPTIBLE. When it said the seed that you are born of is INCORRUPTIBLE.

 

[BobRyan]

1. When I read a text like Rom 8:30, What is mythical about what the truth of this passage?

I readily agree that some scriptures do very little to challenge OSAS -- Romans 8:30 is a good example of one of them.

My argument is that to stand the TEST of scripture a doctrine must survive the texts that come out and refute it as the ones I have listed.

John 3:16 is another great text that does not challenge OSAS in any way.

I would never argue that every single text of scripture debunks OSAS.

But as I said before -- if you are free to ignore the texts that most directly refute a given doctrine -- then WHAT RC priest, what Mormon priest, What JW elder could not contrive every error conceivable under such rules for Bible study??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

I've studied the necessity of baptism toward salvation.
About half the scriptures that pertain show that
baptism is necessary for salvation. The other half
say baptism is preferred but not absolutely
necessary. So which is it?

I've been lead by the Holy Spirit to say:
Baptism is a preferred by not absolutely
necessary for salvation (your best long-term
bet is to be baptized, if you want to get
it right).

John 3:16 is another great text that does not challenge OSAS in any way.

That is an exceptionally strange thing to say in
response to my saying "OSAS is defined by what John 3:16
calls 'forever' ". John 3:16 is the very definition of
OSAS - it doesn't challenge OSAS it defines 'OSAS'.

 

[steaver]

I readily agree that some scriptures do very little to challenge OSAS -- Romans 8:30 is a good example of one of them.

My argument is that to stand the TEST of scripture a doctrine must survive the texts that come out and refute it as the ones I have listed.

John 3:16 is another great text that does not challenge OSAS in any way.

I would never argue that every single text of scripture debunks OSAS.

This is not agreeing with what we present by giving you scriptures.

The scriptures we cite are not given to you as an example of a "no challenge" to OSAS. They are given as clear examples that OSAS is indeed truth.

But as I said before -- if you are free to ignore the texts that most directly refute a given doctrine -- then WHAT RC priest, what Mormon priest, What JW elder could not contrive every error conceivable under such rules for Bible study??

in Christ,

Bob

No one ignores the text you cite to prove OSAS in error. Every given expo of yours of a text you cite has been thoroughly refuted with a corrected exposition using tools such as "context" and "scripture interpreting scripture" and "Greek definitions" and "harmony" and etc. (knowing that one passage cannot teach against another, all must harmonize) .

It is you brother who ignores proper exgesis even as you demand and require it soo much in your postings.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

I've studied the necessity of baptism toward salvation.
About half the scriptures that pertain show that
baptism is necessary for salvation. The other half
say baptism is preferred but not absolutely
necessary. So which is it?

I've been lead by the Holy Spirit to say:
Baptism is a preferred by not absolutely
necessary for salvation (your best long-term
bet is to be baptized, if you want to get
it right).

I see three different baptisms spoken of in the scriptures. John's baptism of repentance towards God (which neither saved nor took away sin). Jesus' baptism of the Holy Spirit. The believer's baptism of water to publicly testify of their faith in Christ.

Only one saves, the baptism of the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ Himself upon rebirth. All of the scriptures speaking of baptisms must be considered under these three choices. Thus, only the baptism of the Holy Spirit is required for salvation (the "one" baptism). Not John's baptism nor the believer's baptism.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

That is an exceptionally strange thing to say in
response to my saying "OSAS is defined by what John 3:16
calls 'forever' ". John 3:16 is the very definition of
OSAS - it doesn't challenge OSAS it defines 'OSAS'.

Amen brother! :thumbs: Forever can only mean forever, lest Jesus lied.

Either we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves or we are saved if we ourselves forgive everyone from our heart.

Some here need to get a grasp of "Amazing Grace". Brother BobRyan, if you could just lay hold of the grace of God what a powerful preacher you could be in the service of our Lord. If you just stopped kicking against the pricks and humbled yourself before God. God could really use a man like you if your doctrines would just fall in line with God's grace and nothing but the blood.

I often wonder what worship songs your church sings to the Lord. Most of the ones I know, both old hymns and new contempts, all cry out in one way or another "all God, no self" when it comes to salvation. "Nothing but the blood of Jesus" "Amazing Grace" "Victory in Jesus" "How Great thou Art"

Is there any songs that your church can sing that does not support the "all Jesus, nothing of self" when considering salvation?

You always want it both ways Bob. You say Faith alone in Christ but then get all mixed up with self. Leave self out of God's grace and just worship Jesus alone! Pulling your self up by the boot straps is only getting you stretched boot straps! Let your ONLY source of salvation be rested in Jesus Christ, He will not fail you like we fail ourselves daily. He holds your salvation, thank God, just let it with Him and stop trying to cuddle it and protect it. Christ has it, let Christ take care of it and you get busy giving folks the living water message that they desperately need.

Teaching believers how to stay saved is a waste of precious time and energy. It takes the focus away from the serving of others too serving oneself. If I had to consider everyday what I must do to be saved I sure wouldn't have much time to worry about anyone elses needs, only my own.

Fully trust Christ brother Bob and free up your time to actually preach the good news. As of now, your message of you better protect your salvation is only wasting your gifts that God has given you. I am sure you could be a great leader of God's flock if you just let the saving part to Jesus, that is His gift to work, and let the Holy Spirit work your own gifts in you and through you.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[AAA]

Thaniks for all you help with the conversation about Judas. Which brings me to the next questions. Can you lose your salvation? And is OSAS a license to sin? Thank you guys so much it has been very helpful.

Can you lose your salvation? NO...Read John 10:27-28.

And is OSAS a license to sin? A lot of people (maybe they are not truely saved) that I know live as if it is a license to sin...